Thoughts on Berserker rework | Forums

[OneBrch]

I see quite a number of people complaining that Berserker changes were not a proper rework, like Kensei got, but rather a quality of life balance changes, like Highlander got.

As a berserker main I am actually glad he didn't get changed a lot. I liked him even before the rework. He didn't have that many options as some other characters, he was not easy to play or to get damage done, but it was a damn good feeling when things worked out the way you planned.

Basically he can do everything he could but a bit better. The only thing he lost was the first attack cancel into dodgem which was never really useful. And the automatic guard break after deflect. Which is not that bad. As the devs say it could lead to some dangerous situations, like in a team fight, when you accidentally dodged in the exact time a ganking opponent launched an attack and you were vulnerable to attacks of the original target. Or in Aramusha light chain, when the GB simply didn't connect. Now it is also more consistent with the other characters when everybody else has to press something to get their deflect move (except for Shinobi who gets a bleed regardless).

These changes make his life a bit easier, give him more options, but they don't take away the fun.

[FrappeWarrior]

as a zerker main i have to disagree. im not saying the changes are bad and of course we cant know for sure until we try them out but from what i see on paper i am a bit disappointed.

we gained some speed and a better chance to land some lights and in general it made his feint game a tiny bit more dangerous and we gained two unblockables.

the first unblockable is the top heavy finisher which is so slow that even without the unblockable status it almost always triggers a reaction. people already know to expect a feint into GB or light and still have plenty of time to parry/dodge if you let it flow. on the other hand we lost 25 damage from this attack which is really bad imo. the oos punish is now 33 damage less and that top heavy was zerker best trade, now you are going to be trading for 30 damage.

the second unblockable (with the damage increase to supposedly balance the top heavy damage loss) is the 3rd side heavy which, lets be honest, is kinda useless. when was the last time you managed to land 3 consecutive heavies. even if you got to that point you most like used that heavy for a feint. its not impossible but it is unlikely. you could whiff the 1st, trade the 2nd and then go for the 3rd and still your best bet is a feint. is it a bit better since the unblockable status forces a reaction? yes. is it a game changer buff? no.

we lost a bit of damage in the openers which are more likely to hit and gained a bit of damage in the chained hits that are more unlikely to hit, combine that with the heavy damage changes and you 'll see that while in theory the zerkers damage may seem higher or equal than before in practice i think its actually going to be lower. we lost the dodge cancel on openers which btw is not useless and we lost a bit of damage and stamina damage from the throws. we also lost the ability to counter attack after blocking a light.

again this is just on paper we dont really know how it actually plays but it seems we are trading more than we should for two (easily predictable) unblockables and a bit faster lights

[OneBrch]

As I said, I liked zerker already before the rework, that's why I am glad they didn't change that much. That is just my personal feeling though.

I can see why you are discontent. Berserker was promised big changes, but in the end stayed more or less stayed the same. We lost a few tools (e.g. attack cancel into dodge), but we got some more option instead. Stay with me and I will point out two things these unblockales mean and I am really looking forward to try them.

the first unblockable is the top heavy finisher which is so slow that even without the unblockable status it almost always triggers a reaction. people already know to expect a feint into GB or light and still have plenty of time to parry/dodge if you let it flow.

True, in most cases this attack has relatively the same use as before. Only now if you mix things up, people can't just let it fly and block.
The main change I see is that now the attack is not counterable by attacks with superior block - Warden top light. Highlander light, Valkyrie dodge-block and so on. This used to be an easy way for these characters to get damage on zerk and now it will be gone.
In the past even if you feinted against warden and followed by a light, they usually got their top light before your attack connected. They basically reacted to a wrong move but still got a favorable trade. They won't be able to do this anymore and with the uninterruptible stance and faster light after feint, you will beat this even if they do a top light out of habit.
Even other characters can't just let it land and block if they are unsure. But I agree that in most cases this change does not have a huge impact.

the second unblockable (with the damage increase to supposedly balance the top heavy damage loss) is the 3rd side heavy which, lets be honest, is kinda useless. when was the last time you managed to land 3 consecutive heavies.
...
is it a bit better since the unblockable status forces a reaction? yes. is it a game changer buff? no

True, this chain was difficult to pull off. I sometimes managed to surprise the opponent by using it to end my infinite chain - heavy, light, heavy, heavy, heavy. Even then the third heavy was usually not effective. But let me get to the part, where the forced reaction from the unblockable status MIGHT be a game changer.

the oos punish is now 33 damage less

The new OOS punish.
(first, the old punish does 25 dmg less. The old top heavy finisher was 55, now will be 30. But that is not the main stuff I wanted to point out.)
The top heavy lost a lot of damage. The old punish - side heavy into top heavy. Easy to pull off, huge amount of guaranteed damage (which honestly was a bit too much. I sometimes felt ashamed when I used it). Great damage but once you finished with this combo, you were done. You knew it, the enemy knew it. They had some time to breathe. But now, with top heavy finisher damage nerfed and third side heavy damage buffed AND being unblockable, I can see the Bear Mauler as a new, much scarier OOS punish. And it is all because of the unblockable third.

Why? If you GB an OOS opponent and throw, you have guaranteed two side heavies (since the second side heavy is faster than top heavy), BUT... now you can follow up with a third, unblockable heavy.

Imagine being in the opponent situation. You are out of stamina, the enemy zerk just got two heavies and a third 45 damage UNBLOCKABLE heavy coming your way. What do you do? You can't stand and block, you have to do something. What are your options? Dodge or parry.
You probably still OOS. You can't safely parry. What if he feints? Then you are stuck in a slow OOS heavy attack. The zerker parries you and gets a second OOS punish.
So do you dodge? The zerker feints, GBs you and gets a second OOS punish.

This is the main strength I see in the unblockable third heavy. While your OOS punish has a lower guaranteed damage, you have an easier way to deal more damage right after.

These are the main advantages I see with the new unblockables. There might be more along the way. You see these changes as useless. I see a lot of potential in them. Even though some of it applies only to certain situations.

[FrappeWarrior]

snip.

some good points there regarding the top finisher. overall if i had to choose between unblockable or 55 dmg i would also go for unblockable. my problem is that they overdid it with the damage nerf. as for the side finisher i just dont see it working. even if you surprise your opponent thats still 3 heavies. i guess yes it can find a place in the new oos punish but i dont feel thats a big rework or a buff.

the old oos punish is 33 less you are forgeting 8 damage from the forward push

[OneBrch]

the old oos punish is 33 less you are forgeting 8 damage from the forward push

Yes, it seems I am On the other hand the second heavy in Bear Mauler jumps from 20 dmg to 35 The first side does 33 damage so we will have 68 guaranteed damage oos punish + the follow up potential I described in my previous post.

I guess we will have to wait how these changes turn out.

[PDXGorechild]

The old OOS is 33 less, yes. But the new one, by the looks of it, is 68 damage guaranteed (33 + 35 first two heavies) with a potential for 45 more damage with unblockable, which can be feinted quite easily into a lightning fast light chain starter or a guard break, potentially leading to another OOS punish. This seems fairer to me, rather than being a flat guaranteed 96 damage as it was (8 punch, 33 side heavy 55 top heavy). It now guarantee's less at 68 but has more potential with follow up's (113 damage if they eat the third heavy, ouch)

It's a mixed bag, we took a few nerfs, not entirely sure why the dodge cancel was so necessary but I can see why the max OOS punish was.

We traded a lot of top heavy damage for two unblockables and some serious side heavy damage.

Dance of the paired blades is drastically better. I know a 3 damage buff for light and 5 for heavy doesn't seem like much, but with the light being 400ms (very hard to react to on console) it's made it far more viable. You'll still have to be careful launching the heavies in the combo if your opponent is skilled at parrying, but even the rewards from that are soon to be less. Damage output when in full flow will be 40 damage per second, base. Tasty.

They fixed head slicer, head crusher and zone attack just the way I wanted them to. These moves were mostly redundant before so this is all positive.

I think it's gonna work.

[FrappeWarrior]

gentlemen you are right i stand corrected. the actual damage loss in oos punish is 28 not 33.

im not say its all bad, but i do feel a bit underwhelmed .. overall he is going to be better but i dont think he is going to leave B-tier

[S0Mi_xD]

The old OOS is 33 less, yes. But the new one, by the looks of it, is 68 damage guaranteed (33 + 35 first two heavies) with a potential for 45 more damage with unblockable, which can be feinted quite easily into a lightning fast light chain starter or a guard break, potentially leading to another OOS punish. This seems fairer to me, rather than being a flat guaranteed 96 damage as it was (8 punch, 33 side heavy 55 top heavy). It now guarantee's less at 68 but has more potential with follow up's (113 damage if they eat the third heavy, ouch)

It's a mixed bag, we took a few nerfs, not entirely sure why the dodge cancel was so necessary but I can see why the max OOS punish was.

We traded a lot of top heavy damage for two unblockables and some serious side heavy damage.

Dance of the paired blades is drastically better. I know a 3 damage buff for light and 5 for heavy doesn't seem like much, but with the light being 400ms (very hard to react to on console) it's made it far more viable. You'll still have to be careful launching the heavies in the combo if your opponent is skilled at parrying, but even the rewards from that are soon to be less. Damage output when in full flow will be 40 damage per second, base. Tasty.

They fixed head slicer, head crusher and zone attack just the way I wanted them to. These moves were mostly redundant before so this is all positive.

I think it's gonna work.

lol that's basically what i wanted to say XDDD

[PDXGorechild]

lol that's basically what i wanted to say XDDD

Learnt from the best

[RenegadeTX2000]

taking a side light to always seeing a top unblockable will be scary...