Vanilla and DLC Hero Comparisons | Forums

[PanzerShrekonin]

Tier lists are not as solid an argument as many people believe. I've been here since day 1, and have seen countless tier lists, and no two were alike.

Kensei, while he's been widely considered low tier since Season 1, has always been the bane of my existence. I just can't seem to get the parry times right, so a good Kensei can always kick my ***.
But I absolutely understand why he needs his rework, and my opinion on him shouldn't have any bearing on his place in For Honor. We have to be open minded to the bigger picture of hero balance, not just our own perspectives.

You deal quite plainly in absolutes, and my counter point is simply; It's not black and white. Heroes aren't locked into tiers, and nerfing is far from always bad. In my head, For Honor should be a more grounded fighter than what it's currently looking to become.

THen why are people saying Glad and Shaman are top tier/S class?


I mean if tier lists dont exist... then whats the point? Anyone can make an arguement that X is OP... that Highlander is OP...

And you are right, tier lists are never the same. The same was for Mortal Kombat and Injustice. Always difference of opinion...

But, PK is still one of the strongest characters in the game imo. They didn't do much to her for nerfs that would affect her from being top tier.... and the guy said we should buff PK? I jhad to reply to that...


Meh. Doesn't really matter in the end. The game will NEVER be balanced.

[Tundra 793]

THen why are people saying Glad and Shaman are top tier/S class?

Because they are very, very good heroes, and many would argue they're too good.

I mean if tier lists dont exist... then whats the point? Anyone can make an arguement that X is OP... that Highlander is OP...

Tier lists exists, but there's not a lot of objective metrics with which to judge heroes, so tier lists are just anecdotal evidence, ergo we can't rely on them solely for balance changes.

And you are right, tier lists are never the same. The same was for Mortal Kombat and Injustice. Always difference of opinion...

But, PK is still one of the strongest characters in the game imo. They didn't do much to her for nerfs that would affect her from being top tier.... and the guy said we should buff PK? I jhad to reply to that...

You've just drifted into my point; You think PK is very strong, whereas I find her quite balanced. Right here is why we can't use tier lists to judge heroes, because yours and mine would be very different.

Meh. Doesn't really matter in the end. The game will NEVER be balanced.

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[PanzerShrekonin]

Because they are very, very good heroes, and many would argue they're too good.



Tier lists exists, but there's not a lot of objective metrics with which to judge heroes, so tier lists are just anecdotal evidence, ergo we can't rely on them solely for balance changes.



You've just drifted into my point; You think PK is very strong, whereas I find her quite balanced. Right here is why we can't use tier lists to judge heroes, because yours and mine would be very different.

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I am fine with your opinion...


Like some people argue that Centurion is really powerful still and is still top tier... where as I find him average, but this is because I had played Centurion the most so I know how to fight one. :P

[Jazz117Volkov]

The DLC Heroes, despite there being only 6 of them, has more Unblockables, Stuns and Bleeds than the entire 12 Hero Vanilla Roster.
It's this trend of simply making more powerful heroes that has me worried. The newer heroes, Highlander excluded, all seem to just be amped up versions of the original heroes in terms of types of attacks, and the speed of them.

The DLC guys really are loaded with stuns and bleeds. This has bugged me for a while. I personally don't play any of the DLC heroes because I don't feel any sense of mastery with their movesets. It's just all sorts of spam with various auxiliary effects to further disable your opponent. It's not fun to fight against. Dealing with Shamans and Gladiators quickly devolves into a chore where your alertness needs to be up at 11 so you don't fall for their "player skill shortcuts". Shaman and Centurion both get their strongest punishes off of soft-feints. It's a bit of a joke.

Overall, I think the effect this is having on the game is fundamentally changing the tone and speed of it. I'm replaying the Story Mode on Realistic at the moment, and while the fights aren't particularly challenging anymore, I appreciate their pace far more. There's less grabs, throws, punches, bleeds. It's a much more grounded type of combat, not a competition to spam the most unblockables.

That very much mirrors my initial impression of Season 2: "Oh...it's this sort of game now..."

Personally, I want to see more tempered attack speeds, less moves in each heroes moveset (Really, you could take away Glad's toe stab and Shaman's bite and they'd still be perfectly viable, even great heroes), and generally just more restraint in hero design.

Yeah, that old saying: Jack of all trades, master of none. Well, these DLC chaps are typically released as masters of everything.

I really enjoyed the clear groove each of the OG vanguards fell into. They were each super unique in how they approached combat, and even though Kensei leans towards the weaker end, there's a great sense of mastery when you excel with each of their styles. The new heroes often feel awkward in how strong they are with typically auxiliary moves: Cent with his guardbreak, Shaman with her bleed and bashes, Aramusha with his feints. These guys are built around specialty moves.

The basic structure of light and heavy attacks has been discarded in favour of fast heavies with high damage and super fast lights with guaranteed followups, and every second move is given a bleed or stun property.

I still want to see the parry changes take effect, but I'd really hoped to have had this in game a while ago, before we got into the reworks so we could see the affect it had on the meta, rather than trying to fix the meta by punching through it.

I'm more than a little concerned I won't enjoy the game after the changes. If the DLC heroes and their obnoxious traits are an indication of where the devs are pushing the game, I doubt I'll be on board with it.

Rarely should a hero have more than two auxiliaries: stun, bleed, hyper armour, unblockable, soft-feints. Stacking specials cheapens the combat. Glad can open with a stun, easily get an unblockable, get bleed, throw out more stuns just because.

If I pick up my Warden post patch and there's a slew of status effects attached to half a dozen super fast heavies with guaranteed followups, I'm done. That's not the game I bought.

[Alustar.exe]

I feel if I wanted to play a slow paced, easily predictable combat game with a highly restrictive and repetitive move set, I'd go back to playing Dark souls :/

[ChampionRuby50g]

I feel if I wanted to play a slow paced, easily predictable combat game with a highly restrictive and repetitive move set, I'd go back to playing Dark souls :/

While I do like the amount of mind games and moves each hero has to master, I agree with us not needing as many Unblockables/Stuns/Bleeds. That is starting to take the combat out of the players hands in a way, to a point where everyone will be relying on these type of moves to win a fight, instead of their skill with actual attacks. If I’m outplayed and die, kudos to the enemy. But if it’s a close fight and I get hit with a bleed move and die from said bleed, it feels cheap and as if the player did not truly kill me, a gimmick did. There have been times where I have been struck with bleed with at least 25% HP left, been hit by a few attacks and still would be alive fighting but only to collapse off something that struck me 10s earlier.

[Jazz117Volkov]

I feel if I wanted to play a slow paced, easily predictable combat game with a highly restrictive and repetitive move set, I'd go back to playing Dark souls :/

It's not about being repetitive or restrictive; For Honor is the only game I know of that actually allows you to attack from different directions, but instead of building mechanics around that, all the new characters have just devolved into typical fighting game characters: really fast and long combos distributed over left and right instead of high and low.

The assassin deflect is the only mechanic aside from parrying/blocking where attack direction actually matters. For Honor is not living up to its potential.

[Alustar.exe]

While I do like the amount of mind games and moves each hero has to master, I agree with us not needing as many Unblockables/Stuns/Bleeds. That is starting to take the combat out of the players hands in a way, to a point where everyone will be relying on these type of moves to win a fight, instead of their skill with actual attacks. If I’m outplayed and die, kudos to the enemy. But if it’s a close fight and I get hit with a bleed move and die from said bleed, it feels cheap and as if the player did not truly kill me, a gimmick did. There have been times where I have been struck with bleed with at least 25% HP left, been hit by a few attacks and still would be alive fighting but only to collapse off something that struck me 10s earlier.

But that's not the case, you are totally overlooking the skill of players who read through those feints and attacks, then manage to block parry or counter them.

[ChampionRuby50g]

But that's not the case, you are totally overlooking the skill of players who read through those feints and attacks, then manage to block parry or counter them.

Do you mean the players who block parry and counter bleed attacks?
You can have a game that isn’t slow paced and easily predictable without bleed and stun attacks though. Not saying there should be no bleed or stuns, but when 6 DLC heroes have more than the original 12 combined, that is a serious oversight.

[Jarl.Felix]

Of course it came to this.. when devs openly stated that they "are still thinking how to balance this game" )

After 1 year of full data, failed decisions and broken mechanics they still don't have any idea how to balance this game..

Playerbase reached lowest numbers since recent "events". So don't have high hopes on balance, this game will continue to be **** in 2018 also.