Big shoutout to Reddit user Andur22 for putting this together. I've actually been meaning to do exactly this, minus the clean and well made graphics, for a while now, but Andur beat me to it.
Reposting his thread here in case some forum users don't use Reddit; https://www.reddit.com/r/forhonor/co...and_dlc_heros/
The core of this little experiment is something that's concerned me for a while now;
The DLC Heroes, despite there being only 6 of them, has more Unblockables, Stuns and Bleeds than the entire 12 Hero Vanilla Roster.
It's this trend of simply making more powerful heroes that has me worried. The newer heroes, Highlander excluded, all seem to just be amped up versions of the original heroes in terms of types of attacks, and the speed of them.
Overall, I think the effect this is having on the game is fundamentally changing the tone and speed of it. I'm replaying the Story Mode on Realistic at the moment, and while the fights aren't particularly challenging anymore, I appreciate their pace far more. There's less grabs, throws, punches, bleeds. It's a much more grounded type of combat, not a competition to spam the most unblockables.
In contrast to the average Dominion battle I'll get into, almost every fight against the new heroes is just a non-stop assault of attacks. Every time i get thrown down a Centurion comes flying out of the sun to stab me, Shaman's manifest seemingly out of my own nightmares to knock me into walls or off ledges, or to go full Dracula on me. Gladiators dance and stab left and right, their Stamina seemingly fueled by my frustration.
Since we're not getting new heroes for Season 5, I'm hoping now is the golden oppurtunity to really affect the future of For Honor, as players. While I'm glad we're getting reworks for the old roster, I'd still much rather have seen the DLC heroes get taken down a few notches.
Personally, I want to see more tempered attack speeds, less moves in each heroes moveset (Really, you could take away Glad's toe stab and Shaman's bite and they'd still be perfectly viable, even great heroes), and generally just more restraint in hero design.
I have this feeling that the newer heroes were designed to sort of counteract the defensive meta, by employing a lot of attacks designed to open up defenses. But this has only treated the symptoms of the meta, not fixed it. And giving old heroes this same treatment likewise won't cure the meta.
I still want to see the parry changes take effect, but I'd really hoped to have had this in game a while ago, before we got into the reworks so we could see the affect it had on the meta, rather than trying to fix the meta by punching through it.
TL;DR - I'm still hopeful for the future of For Honor, but based on the first year, I am worried about how all our heroes will play in a few months time, and that the game might end up feeling completely different from when It first launched.
Thanks for the write-up and for the link. I will help embed it on here:
I just realized, how doubly effective the DLC heroes are, compared to the OG roster. Holy heck. I never bothered to count individual moves, but this... this is truth-telling on a silver plate.
Feelings mutual. Should For Honor degrade into a bashfest / bleedfest down the road, I don't think I'll stick around. I'm saving my final say till after dedicated servers are out, reworks are out, parry changes are out, and S6 heroes are out.I'm still hopeful for the future of For Honor, but based on the first year, I am worried about how all our heroes will play in a few months time, and that the game might end up feeling completely different from when It first launched.
Season 5 is going to be a big one in terms of practically all of the concerns you brought up. We'll be going into more details soon, but I'm glad you see Season 5 as an opportunity to refine what's already in the game. That's very much the goal.Originally Posted by Tundra 793 Go to original post
To be fair, the devs are aware of this. That's why the OG cast is getting reworks, motion capped new moves added which are without a doubt unblockables and other types of improvements to bring them up to spec with the new heroes.
Its a new genre, you can see by looking at the DLC characters that they have learned as they went, this game is slowly being polished and I think the upcoming year will be much better than the first in all aspects.
They just need to finish balancing the roster and work on fixing Faction War and ranked Dom.
The problem I have with the vanilla roster is the limited move list and incredible predictability. The reason I prefer shaman over my peacekeeper is simply the ability I have to mix up and keep from being parried and countered.
I'm greatly looking forward to the changes these reworks bring, as I've been saying since season 2 that it's something that should have been done.
They sure hyped us all during the last Den. All the good things that have been meant for For Honor for far too long, are finally happening in Season 5. It's like the stellar, godsend Season.Originally Posted by UbiInsulin Go to original post
I, for one, remain however skeptical. For various reasons, with the icing on the cake being the 'reworked' Frost Wind Viking Mask, and that they were actively avoiding the word 'rework' and saying 'updates' is a fitter term; for lack of a better guess, I'd say they don't want to use rework because rework indeed means 75% redone from scratch, whereas update is much less than that. Which also leads me to believe, the character 'reworks' will be some updated animations, and maybe some unblockable bashes from neutral, for a wrap. Instead of in-depth systematic changes. But my guess is only as good as anyone else's.
That said, I remain faithful in Ubisoft improving this game because, despite everything that's been happening, For Honor has improved much overall. Only, I hope they now have a much clearer vision of what goal to set firmly in stone for this game on the long run. With Ariadne leaving and no replacement writer yet, and with several design caveats and no mention whatsoever of expansion packs for Story Mode, I sure hope development of For Honor doesn't become restrained to multiplayer balancing only; which would effectively turn it into another CS:GO.
Patiently waiting for what news the next Den will bring.
You're givin' me hope, and I'm very stoked to be recapping the next Den.Originally Posted by UbiInsulin Go to original post
But that's not the point I was trying to make. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough with my wording, but; I don't want the vanilla roster to be brought up to par with the DLC heroes, as I see them as full of excess moves, and needlessly fast attacks. Compared to the original heroes, they're in a league of their own, and not a better one in my opinion.Originally Posted by The_B0G_ Go to original post
I agree to an extent. It's a very fine line between the two categories (Vanilla and DLC heroes), so sorry if I sound a bit contradictory.The problem I have with the vanilla roster is the limited move list and incredible predictability. The reason I prefer shaman over my peacekeeper is simply the ability I have to mix up and keep from being parried and countered.
The Gladiator for example, I feel has too much mixup, which is aggrevated by his large Stamina pool. But I just don't think the solution to this is to keep buffing heroes, but rather to bring some newer heroes down a tad, or with the upcoming reworks, provided they aren't too excessive.
I'll reserve judgement until we see the reworks in action, the point of the thread was just to point out how the newer heroes are designed, and that going forward, I don't want to see all the heroes keep getting newer, faster more unblockable moves, but a more tempered approach to the hero design overall.
Basically, I want less "Faster! More intense!" in the heroes.
Yeah, this too. I'd like a pure melee tactical combat. By tactical, it means the near-absence, or complete absence, of free (and fast) hits, free damage, and/or guaranteed 1-shots. I don't have a problem with fast 400ms and 500ms attacks per-se, I have a problem with how, ultimately, as it stands, combat in For Honor revolves around landing guaranteed hits. And this is only aggravated 10 times worse with the DLC heroes. Because the DLC heroes are twice as fast and doubly efficient.Originally Posted by Tundra 793 Go to original post
I agree with the OP. I’d like to see the new roster a little toned down. The game is honestly slowly being tarnished by CC. Many people say each character needs their own CC opener to be viable. It may be unpopular of me to say, but I highly disagree. Opener? Yes, but the amount of CC and their spamability especially in 4v4 is honestly slowly destroying the fundamentals of the game.
Don’t get me wrong, certain characters could significantly benefit from a CC like orochi, but no CC except for the already implemented CC should guarantee damage. I would argue what the game truly needs to make characters viable are viable UB attacks in either chain or neutral like raiders zone, and shaman and glads chain finishers.
If I were to fix the vanilla roster, I would do the following:
Warden: Ub top heavy
Conq: I’ll just say good thing he’s getting full rework as he’s fundamentally out of place
PK: a Stun CC as a chain finisher into follow up heavy
LB: UB wider zone
Raider: honestly fine, no changes
Warlord: UB finisher to his double heavy chain
Berserker: After a heavy in chain, same side heavy UB
Valkyrie: sweep fientable
Kensei: UB moderate speed zone (current zone is trash)
Shugoki: without armor no debuff, viable follow up to headbutt (why even have stun with a move that creates too much space?)
Orochi: CC opener, UB chain finisher after successful hit
Nobushi: fientable kick, hidden stance cost significantly reduced
For the new roster, I think glads toe stab should be parryable, cent and Shinobi are fine now, HL could use a buff in OS stamina and superior light input timing, shaman needs to have her bite taken out completely and a smaller throw, aramusha is fine for the most part too.
Again, maybe this is an unpopular opinion but it would bring the whole roster up and with small yet viable changes to each.