Countering Shaman (both pre-nerf and post-nerf) | Forums

[bob333e]

If you're someone who never mained a Shaman but feel the need to practice against one, I'm one of those, and here's what I've noticed so far. It would also help me (and others) a lot if more people contributed to this discussion and more people knew tricks how to counter Shaman easier. Apologies in advance if there already was another thread about this, if so please do point me there. I play on PS4.

- Shaman's only real deadly combo is a series of left-right mixups that if successfully connects every hit, opens up Blood Trance and she can then do the pounce. She cannot do the dreaded pounce before this combo. This combo opens up with two side attacks and a top light; as soon as you see that, roll backwards because most players doing this combo won't be able to cancel it. You won't let her go into Blood Trance and she cannot do the pounce.

- Her dash/jumping heavy attack has a delayed attack hitbox, you dodge a little bit later than her jumping animation, and you avoid the hit. Dodging at the same time as when she jumps won't do. I just cannot tell most of the time whether it's a left or right attack. Suggestions here how to tell which side can help much. I recommend either dodging or parrying this attack, don't simply block because she will then do the side-dodge-spinning-heavy if her jumping heavy failed to hit you.

- Her pounce (if activated upon entering Blood Trance) can only be safely dodged if you're two characters away at least. That means like 3 meters away. Closer than that and the broken hitbox will connect. Full block won't save you either (I tried with Warlord), and Revenge won't do. I understand this is getting fixed mid-december.

- If you've been hit by headbutt bash, don't attempt attacking right after, because her top-light will connect faster than anything. And she can chain her combo from there, in an attempt to activate Blood Trance.

- Straight-up random quick jabs are often countered by her side-dodge-spinning-heavy (whatever it's called). Try to feint a heavy then parry her side dodge attack.

- The more skilled players will often feint the unblockable into a GB. If you fell for it once, expect it again. Don't try to parry the unblockable.

- If you see her dodging forward before you even attacked, she's likely attempting a headbutt bash. It's your only sign of seeing it because once activated it's a tad bit too fast to react to. If you dodge the headbutt it's a free GB.

More things will come to mind as time goes on and as I meet more Shamans and memorize her more, but any other thoughts on the matter are thoroughly appreciated.

[Ackturi]

If you're someone who never mained a Shaman but feel the need to practice against one, I'm one of those, and here's what I've noticed so far. It would also help me (and others) a lot if more people contributed to this discussion and more people knew tricks how to counter Shaman easier. Apologies in advance if there already was another thread about this, if so please do point me there. I play on PS4.

- Shaman's only real deadly combo is a series of left-right mixups that if successfully connects every hit, opens up Blood Trance and she can then do the pounce. She cannot do the dreaded pounce before this combo. This combo opens up with two side attacks and a top light; as soon as you see that, roll backwards because most players doing this combo won't be able to cancel it. You won't let her go into Blood Trance and she cannot do the pounce.

- Her dash/jumping heavy attack has a delayed attack hitbox, you dodge a little bit later than her jumping animation, and you avoid the hit. Dodging at the same time as when she jumps won't do. I just cannot tell most of the time whether it's a left or right attack. Suggestions here how to tell which side can help much. I recommend either dodging or parrying this attack, don't simply block because she will then do the side-dodge-spinning-heavy if her jumping heavy failed to hit you.

- Her pounce (if activated upon entering Blood Trance) can only be safely dodged if you're two characters away at least. That means like 3 meters away. Closer than that and the broken hitbox will connect. Full block won't save you either (I tried with Warlord), and Revenge won't do. I understand this is getting fixed mid-december.

- If you've been hit by headbutt bash, don't attempt attacking right after, because her top-light will connect faster than anything. And she can chain her combo from there, in an attempt to activate Blood Trance.

- Straight-up random quick jabs are often countered by her side-dodge-spinning-heavy (whatever it's called). Try to feint a heavy then parry her side dodge attack.

- The more skilled players will often feint the unblockable into a GB. If you fell for it once, expect it again. Don't try to parry the unblockable.

- If you see her dodging forward before you even attacked, she's likely attempting a headbutt bash. It's your only sign of seeing it because once activated it's a tad bit too fast to react to. If you dodge the headbutt it's a free GB.

More things will come to mind as time goes on and as I meet more Shamans and memorize her more, but any other thoughts on the matter are thoroughly appreciated.

Really good information here. I'm waiting to see how shaman evolve after the patch. The unblockable heavy finisher can soft feint into anything but a light attack from what i've seen. Most go-to is the gb because it's free heavy. I've also seen side dash attacks from unblockable instead of gb but they can also pounce or do the forward dash attack from it. (if you continue to counter UB feint GB they most likely will let it go unless they are a veteran player)

The headbutt is 100% confirmed double light if shaman timed right there's no avoiding it.

Tracking will be fixed (hopefully they don't screw up) where the pounce will be easier to dodge safely.

Another tip, some heroes can dodge the unblockable if you dodge same side. (wait a bit so they don't gb you) so if you don't want to go for the parry, dodge and get ready to block the bleed after. (I've seen a lot of shaman forget about the bleed after UB)

Most bleed hits in a combo will go for top light (fastest bleed stance) just watch for the block.

EDIT: I also wish they allowed you to hit revenge during the bite (shinobi's sickle rain can be revenged out of and so can cent knockdown iirc).

[WABO423]

Her blood trance is activated by you being affected by bleed (does not have to be from her)

she can attempt to procure bleed by using a light attack at the end of any of her combos. (Heavy, heavy. Light, heavy. Light, light, heavy.)

Heavy opener can be soft feinted into a bleed poke from any direction

The second hit of her zone attack can be canceled into a bleed poke

Or she can preform a deflect for a free bleed attack

Her heavy unblockable is only from the left side.

In my personal experience with playing and against her is that playing aggressively against er is the best way to shut her down. If you go on the defensive your done.
Most of her start ups are very slow and a quick light attack will stop her.

To counter the jumping attack simply dodge/dodge attack it’s fast especially up close. The timing is pretty strick but can be done with ease once you figure it out. Don’t try to block because it can come from any side.

To counter her pounce a timed light attack or dodge/dodge attack will stop her it’s pretty easily punished. Also should be noted if you are affected by bleed and she misses a pounce she can pounce again so watch out for that. (She can only pounce 2 times while you are bleeding)

[bob333e]

Thank you both a ton!

@Ackturi I agree her headbutt confirms at least 1 top light, in some cases double light if your opponent times the first attack earlier, or if you're wallsplatted.

I'd avoid dodging the unblockable because as you dodge she can feint and get a free GB, GB cannot be countered if you're in dodge animation, unless on some heroes like Kensei where they have very good side dodge attacks that can activate extra hyperarmor. I play Warden, so for me dodging her unblockable is a no-go. It's either wait for the parry flash, or counter a feinted GB, or roll backwards and reset to neutral instead of taking the upper hand and countering her. And yes, the bleed hit itself is mostly a top light, which was comboed with two side lights, and which acts as opener for two further attacks, effectively draining your health to half and she hasn't even pounced yet.

@WABO423 excellent information! I forgot the pounce is cancellable with a quick top light since it doesn't have hyperarmor. I guess it's your only solution if you're less than 3 meters away and she's about to pounce, because otherwise you can't dodge it. Hopefully this is getting fixed properly.

As for playing aggressively, I've met Shaman players that spam the side-dash-spinning-heavy left and right, leaving you little room to get aggressive up front; and since they are heavies, you can't GB her out of the animation. You must resort to blocking/parrying, then proceed to go aggressive afterwards.

I've rarely met players who use deflect, I need to train more against the deflect. Deflect is definitely in another league. And if it guarantees a free bleed, I think this becomes her second-deadliest thing, right after the pounce.

Her heavy unblockable is always from your right side, though it's cancellable far into the animation so I'm still icking up on the timing. I'll eventually get used to it though. For the jumping attack, sometimes block has worked but only because I guessed right in which direction the attack will come from. You're right, it's generally better to just dodge it. I just wish there was a way to tell from which direction she's going to jump....

[CandleInTheDark]

I have her at rep 2 though I am holding off using her more until the tracking is fixed as it feels cheap and I don't want to come to rely on something like that in its current state when a fix is in the works, she isn't going to be my main but she might be a consideration if my team needs both an assassin and a disabler (thinking her headbutt in xv1 situations here, valk is my pure disabler).

The best way of dealing with the side dodge is to block or parry, yeah, I use that as a whiff punish though so when I do it your best bet is trying to block the second heavy or the bleed at the end of it,that is my most common route to bleed with deflect behind that. From my side of the screen when using the jumping attack, there is a difference in how she moves her arms, I don't know if that comes before the red indicator but if it does that is a warning if you look for it. The point on aggression is a good one in general though as you pointed out you have to judge that against what else she is doing and not being punished yourself, her bleed cancels are short range and she can be hit out of the pounce.

[bob333e]

I have her at rep 2 though I am holding off using her more until the tracking is fixed as it feels cheap and I don't want to come to rely on something like that in its current state when a fix is in the works, she isn't going to be my main but she might be a consideration if my team needs both an assassin and a disabler (thinking her headbutt in xv1 situations here, valk is my pure disabler).

The best way of dealing with the side dodge is to block or parry, yeah, I use that as a whiff punish though so when I do it your best bet is trying to block the second heavy or the bleed at the end of it. From my side of the screen when using the jumping attack, there is a difference in how she moves her arms, I don't know if that comes before the red indicator but if it does that is a warning if you look for it. The point on aggression is a good one in general though as you pointed out you have to judge that against what else she is doing and not being punished yourself, her bleed cancels are short range and she can be hit out of the pounce.

Thanks a lot for hopping in, a pleasure to have you in here, Candle!

Interesting information; she's weak to Valkyrie, unfortunately I don't main Valkyrie and my chances of countering Shaman with Valkyrie would be way less than with my Warden. I'm currently rep 10 level 15, want to try to hit rep 12 this week.

And yup for the side dodge, if I got hit the first time, I'll feint a heavy to bait a second side dodge which I will then parry and go from there. For the jumping attack, I barely notice anything from her arms; in fact I don't have adequate time to look at them haha. That jump is too fast and reaction time is too punishing. I'll eventually get used to that timing. It's a much safer bet to dodge than block anyway, if I block I am staggered a bit, she can squeeze a light attack after the jump, and I'd have to deal with that. If I dodge, I can squeeze a top light with the Warden, then feint a heavy, parry her side dodge....

And yes. She's very aggressive and attempting to be more aggressive than her won't work; I must bait anything she does, and heavily punish that. And none of her bleed attacks should land.

[WABO423]

If your maining as warden against her your top lights will stop her unblockable heavy and most players won’t be able to react to that, as for dealing with the side heavy attacks, you can either try pushing your left stick in the direction she dashed alone with doing a light in the same direction, this will cause you to do a side step attack and catch her before she hits you if times right. Or you can try blocking it then most will follow up with the left heavy which gives you a free top light if you immediately go for it into shoulder bash, 2 side lights, shoulder bash feint into gb and free light or free heavy on a wall splat.

Most don’t go for deflects because of the timing but best way to avoid it is to not go for the same attack sequences so they cannot predict where you will attack from.

Also don’t forget about your zone attack as it’s your fastest move you have and will also stop her side heavy if timed right

[bob333e]

as for dealing with the side heavy attacks, you can either try pushing your left stick in the direction she dashed alone with doing a light in the same direction, this will cause you to do a side step attack and catch her before she hits you if times right.

Well well, I didn't know that... I should check it out and see if I can land my side lights the moment I see her dashing to the side. Thanks much for the tip!

Or you can try blocking it then most will follow up with the left heavy which gives you a free top light if you immediately go for it into shoulder bash, 2 side lights, shoulder bash feint into gb and free light or free heavy on a wall splat.

I've found that against experienced players, Warden's SB rarely lands unless I catch her completely off-guard. If I block her dodge attack, I'm running a 50/50 where I either land a top light, or she'll spin again and do another dodge attack. Sometimes I land the top light, sometimes I wait for a reaction. I don't often see the side heavy followup unless it's a not-so-experienced player; then yes, in this case what you suggested would work. Hence why I prefer parrying this specific move often, which then guarantees a GB, wallsplat, side/top heavy, SB feint into GB, double light or another side/top heavy. Or simply GB and side/top heavy if I'm not near a wall.

Also don’t forget about your zone attack as it’s your fastest move you have and will also stop her side heavy if timed right

I think using a zone to counter her dodge attack is more risk than reward. Warden's recovery from his zone is a bit too long against the speed at which Shaman can pull off two dodge attacks. It might work against side heavy, but then again the side heavy is often used for a feint mixup rather than an actual attack; I would most likely end up hitting the opponent the same time he hits me and this resets us back to neutral except that Shaman has higher chance of dealing more damage than Warden's zone. :/ best way this would work is when I already know my opponent's expected mixup game, and using the zone to counter a side heavy feint into GB, since GB'ing the Warden out of his zone animation is hard, zone's animation counts as a heavy.

[Knight_Raime]

Honestly just playing aggressive is a good way to win. Try to stay as close as possible to her. That way if she tries to jump forward or backward for rage/pounce you can just light her out of it.
also attacks that are 500ms or faster will beat out her pounce mix up game and both soft feint games. Dodge attacks are very good against aggressive shaman that just over commit.

[Ackturi]

If your maining as warden against her your top lights will stop her unblockable heavy and most players won’t be able to react to that

It's fun to deflect those for a bleed hehe. During my UB I wait to see a reaction if i'm gonna deflect or dodge attack/gb cancel it.