Turtle Meta & Openers | Forums

[Ackturi]

Has anyone noticed that most of the turtle heroes (conq, warlord, etc.) have unblockable openers but aggressive heroes (zerk, orochi, etc.) don't?

This is kind of a problem no?

How are they going to fix the defensive meta without giving openers to all heroes? Why do aggressive heroes not get openers? You would think the turtle heroes DIDN'T get them because they rely on defense to open someone up.........

Bss Aackwards....

[Gemoroda]

The simplest way to fix the defensive meta is to tone down the defense.

1 gb after parry no longer confirmed (should be counterable)
2 the only reward a parry should have is a light attack chain starter.

Both of this would together do: not give reasons to play defensive anymore and encourage people to be more agressive since the only reward for parry vould be safe from gank and a chain starter (agression)

And before anyone say no no no... think... its just logical.
How do you make someone not abuse a gum bit still ise it? Replace the bullets with rubber bullets

[Ackturi]

The simplest way to fix the defensive meta is to tone down the defense.

1 gb after parry no longer confirmed (should be counterable)
2 the only reward a parry should have is a light attack chain starter.

Both of this would together do: not give reasons to play defensive anymore and encourage people to be more agressive since the only reward for parry vould be safe from gank and a chain starter (agression)

And before anyone say no no no... think... its just logical.
How do you make someone not abuse a gum bit still ise it? Replace the bullets with rubber bullets

I agree with these thoughts. Still I think each hero should have their own opener to further allow aggression instead of feinting or waiting for them to attack because you can't open them up.

[Gemoroda]

Warde pk lb cent glad raider warlord zerk valk highlander SHAMAN kensei(rework) shugoki nobushi* and shinobi have openers.
Conq (rework) orochi and especially aramusha should get oppeners two. (Most fitting OPENER FOR ARAMUSHA would be a opener heavy soft camcelable into light thats a chain starter)

[DJ_Masterson]

The simplest way to fix the defensive meta is to tone down the defense.

1 gb after parry no longer confirmed (should be counterable)
2 the only reward a parry should have is a light attack chain starter.

Both of this would together do: not give reasons to play defensive anymore and encourage people to be more agressive since the only reward for parry vould be safe from gank and a chain starter (agression)

And before anyone say no no no... think... its just logical.
How do you make someone not abuse a gum bit still ise it? Replace the bullets with rubber bullets

These are not bad ideas but they do not actually solve the Turtle meta.

Only way to truly end turtle meta is to create a way for heroes to open up a defending player WITHOUT BEING PUNISHED.

As long as the turtle can prevent you from opening his defense, turtle meta wins.

[ThatMetalDude]

What if For Honor did stamina the wrong way around? What if defending cost stamina while attacking was free? The best defense would be a good offense and people would try to stay on the offensive. Would be a fun experiment at the very least.

[Jazz117Volkov]

My issue with toning down the defense meta is too much of the core gameplay is built around it. It's why we haven't seen those much talked about adjustments implemented. Weak defense doesn't work; it cripples too many characters. If we look at the meta as not a mechanical issue but a behavioral issue, the fix is incentives. High defense is an incentive to defend, but that doesn't mean weak defense is an incentive to attack. There needs to be clear and present advantages to playing offensively; that's the only way I see the meta going away.

Weakening defense amounts to taking things out of the game, what we need is to put things in the game.

[nyrue]

My issue with toning down the defense meta is too much of the core gameplay is built around it. It's why we haven't seen those much talked about adjustments implemented. Weak defense doesn't work; it cripples too many characters. If we look at the meta as not a mechanical issue but a behavioral issue, the fix is incentives. High defense is an incentive to defend, but that doesn't mean weak defense is an incentive to attack. There needs to be clear and present advantages to playing offensively; that's the only way I see the meta going away.

Weakening defense amounts to taking things out of the game, what we need is to put things in the game.

my god...an intelligent thought, its been a while since I've seen one around these parts. eloquently said, but its not even that simple, this game exists in two dimensions, dominion mode and duels each plagued with there own unique set of problems, in dominion mode there is no defensive meta only ganking meta, conversely in duels there is only the defensive meta, whatever changes you make must more or less be innocuous to one another, any changes to fix ganking must not break duels and any changes made to fix duels must not break dominion modes,

DEF META

1. chip damage needs to be lethal, you can balance this for dominion modes by simply decreasing block damage received from sources you are not currently locked onto that way you need only focus on parry one person if need be

2. feinting needs a rework, If chip damage is the punish for passive defense than feinting is most certainly the punish for active def, think about it, but it is not effective enough, even if your opponent should fall for you feint and attempt too parry he need only feint in response if he posses even a modest amount of skill, If the game were still in development I would suggest separating the parry input from any feintable attack, but such a change is too drastic and impractical at this stage of the game, instead I would suggests alterations the input window for feint, by narrowing the input window your reduce your opponents ability to retract a baited parry

Ganking

1. GB stun locking, I know there are worse abuses in dominion modes right now but this one is #1 on my list because all characters can do it, its also the easiest to fix, simply increase the push back your opponent receives after a successful CGB ever so slightly, only to a degree in which he must close distance again before he can attempt another GB giving you a modicum of breathing room, and/or increase the recovery time your opponent receives after a successful CGB, so that they must wait slightly longer before they can attempt another GB, and/or implement a minor-moderate stamina penalty on your opponent upon successful CGB, any combination of these things would go miles in making dominion mode more enjoyable

I could list more but right now i'm tired, I've posted about these changes many many times, so if you are so inclined you can look up my post history, I may return to edit this some time later but for now I need some sleep, in short I don't think adding or removing is the answer this game needs rebalancing of its core mechanics, the building blocks on which any respectable fighting game is built

[DJ_Masterson]

My issue with toning down the defense meta is too much of the core gameplay is built around it. It's why we haven't seen those much talked about adjustments implemented. Weak defense doesn't work; it cripples too many characters. If we look at the meta as not a mechanical issue but a behavioral issue, the fix is incentives. High defense is an incentive to defend, but that doesn't mean weak defense is an incentive to attack. There needs to be clear and present advantages to playing offensively; that's the only way I see the meta going away.

Weakening defense amounts to taking things out of the game, what we need is to put things in the game.

It's so nice to hear from people who actually get it.

Defense Meta isn't strong because it has too many options for guaranteed damage, it's strong because it has those options at ALL, while other tactics DO NOT.

The only way to break the defense meta is either to remove those guaranteed hits altogether, or provide some guaranteed hits out of offensive tactics.

I personally tend to suggest buffing the GB but people seem to REALLY be against buffing GB's. It's ****ing insane.

[nyrue]

It's so nice to hear from people who actually get it.

Defense Meta isn't strong because it has too many options for guaranteed damage, it's strong because it has those options at ALL, while other tactics DO NOT.

The only way to break the defense meta is either to remove those guaranteed hits altogether, or provide some guaranteed hits out of offensive tactics.

I personally tend to suggest buffing the GB but people seem to REALLY be against buffing GB's. It's ****ing insane.

I do like like to imagine what this game would be like if GB functioned as a mechanic in its own right instead of stun locking and parry punishes, I think ubisofts biggest mistake (besides being ubisoft) is that they completely misjudge the skill level of the people playing this game, I mean they've never done a fighting game before ( to my knowledge) what frame of reference do they have? I have since sworn off buying ubisoft games but I will say this I will be watching for honor 2 very closely,