Member
So, the heroes from the new seasons (not just the last one) clearly show the path that the devs think is best for this game. I am pleased that you are addressing (and it didn't take you that long) the imbalances concerning the Shaman without taking away from her kit; basically you are reworking her numbers, something that most of us players wanted to see in the first place. It is obvious that you are tackling the turtle meta not just by implementing basic core changes (like the oos punish, and the parry reworks that are yet to come) but by designing new heroes that reward aggressive game-play, and are often counter by playing aggressively. This is all great.
Now, my question;
As a warden main (you know, the warden; the most boring and predictable hero with the most basic kit), I have been seeing the good design choices and versatile kits granted to the new heroes and have been wondering, why does his zone still grant a free GB if blocked?
My issues with this are multiple, but I will try to sum them up in a coherent and constructive way;
1. The Warden has 3 quick attacks; Top Light, Sprint Attack and Zone. Each of these attacks always comes from its designated and same direction. When playing against a good player, he will keep his guard in top, thus completely negating your top light and effectively react to your zone by blocking it most of the time, giving him a free GB. Thus, 2 of your three quick attacks are stopped. You could argue that you can unlock, retreat and then charge at your enemy and attack him with either your sprint attack or with a Zone, going for a 50/50 guess chance. But this reminds me too much of the Raider stampede abuse and I am sure the devs did not intend this as a way of playing FH, as the nerfs to such cheesy moves would indicate. So let us assume that we are not a cheesing bastard and are playing this game normally, as intended. We then really have 2 and not 3 quick attacks; 2 attacks that a good player will always react to. What happens then, you might ask. Once you realize that your opponent is a turtle master you have to adapt, but because the Warden doesn't really have that much options or any kit versatility there is only two things that you can do; Turtle up yourself or go for shoulder bash mind games, which leads me to points 2 and 3.
2. Once zone and top light becomes a no-go, you can try to play shoulder bash mind games, the only real mind games that you can do, and basically what good warden players must resort to most of the time. This leads to what most other players call is the Warden vortex (despite it being nerfed heavily, and despite the fact that you can completely negate it with a quick backwards dash or a dodge), where you mostly really on luck rather than skill to force a player make the 'wrong choice', allowing you to continue with your shoulder bash mix-ups. This is frustrating for players fighting against a Warden, even though this is the only real answer that wardens have against good turtles. Well, not really the only one but is IMHO better than turtling yourself, which is the only other option.
3. As I have stated, once you cant use your two fast attacks to harras your opponent and he knows how to avoid all of your shoulder bash mix-ups, you are left with one option; turtle yourself. At this point the match becomes a staring contest and the last grain of fun is sucked out from it. You might argue that you can feint heavies into top light or zone, and I have done that. But once you do that 2 or 3 times, any good opponent realizes what you are doing and after that usually reacts to your feints, parrying your top light and blocking your zone again.
So, to sum it up, having your zone give a free GB on a block, forces you to either spam your shoulder bash and go for luck instead of skill or turtle up yourself, something that I believe is contrary to what you guys think how FH should be played, if the new heroes are any indication. Zone giving a free GB particularly becomes even more obsolete if you take into account that parry, once the turtle fixes come completely, won't grant a GB. Which means that blocking this particular attack will potentially be more rewarding than parrying it, which on its own is complete BS.
Now look at the benefits of having his zone not grant you a free GB; a warden can be more aggressive, he won't have to relay on turtling or shoulder bash spamming so much. Isn't that what you want with all of the characters? TO allow them to play more aggressively? This could be easily implemented, lower his zone attack speed to orochi's zone attack speed and that's it, maybe even lower the dmg for a few notches. But that's it. Why hasn't this already been implemented?
Also, while we are on the topic of granting the warden options to play more aggressively, remember that glorious bug that allowed the warden to soft feint his side attacks. You know, his ultra slow light attacks that everyone blocks and parries all the time, because they are slow as hell. Yes, those side attacks. The completely useless attacks that are only good as a shoulder bash follw-up. Do you remember how that bug looked so awesome and the animation transition so natural? Why did you remove that bug instead of granting it as a feature? Make it the same as the raiders stunning tap, you initiate a side light attack and while mid animation, press the light attack again and it always come from the opposite side. It would be cool, would allow the Warden to play more mind games, allow him to use something new, easy to implement and would still allow others to react to it [because the soft feinted attack would always come from the opposite side, you wouldn't be able to soft feint to any side, like the Shaman can currently].
If you think that would be OP, why not then allow the Warden to soft feint his side heavies in the same fashion? You start a heavy form one side and soft feint it into a side light always from the other side. Come to think of it this would kinda be great to use with his basic L+L+H combo. Why not both? Let's go crazy dammit!
On a more serious note, i know that the core classes are going to be reworked. I think that Warden also need more reworks and maybe even new mo-cap like the kensei and conq will get. But in the mean time, while we wait for that, can you not implement this? Isn't this exactly the same as the re-balancing of the shaman, messing with the numbers and nothing else? And, as far as the soft feints, the bug showed that the animations looks seamless and ok on their own, no additional mo-cap would be necessary.
Can't you make one of the most basic and boring heroes a bit less boring and less cheesy? I think that it is unnecessary to wait for the 'warden's turn' to receive his overhaul to implement these fixes.
Sorry for the long post. It was not meant as an attack but as an honest question and, while I was at it, my own suggestions that I, as a Warden main form the bloody beta, think would greatly increase the fun of playing him. I do NOT want the Warden to become OP or imbalanced, and I do not find it fun when I use clearly OP or overtuned characters to stomp others, regardless of their skill level. I just wish for the Warden to be a bit more fun, like the new heroes are.
Senior Member
The same reason the ranged heavy after shinobi kick, all glad dash attacks, and all valk dash attacks also still give GB on block.
Because the devs have been busy with other things. It's my understanding that all heros will receive some kind of touch ups after they've finished with the defensive meta changes.
i'd imagine all of that will be fixed at some point.
Member
These things could be easily changed. And should be changed, especially when compared to the kits of the new heroes. To have such simple changes wait the larger changes of each hero is kinda... strange... and begs the question why have they not been implemented already... It's not like these changes would require data collecting, new mo-cap, or reinventing anything...
Senior Member
I mean it sounds like it is. But you have them already doing so many things.Originally Posted by Justicator Go to original post
working on a new lag comp system
moving over to dedi servers
heavily focusing on the defensive meta fixes.
completely reworking 3 heros atm with varrying degrees of progress on other heros.
etc.
Member
Yeah, I can see where you're coming from, but the guys doing the servers and the lag comp system aren't the ones balancing the heroes, that wouldn't make much sense. I can see the guys doing the re-balances and the def meta changes would be buys, but... I don't know, I kinda hope they read this and decide to implement these changes, what I consider qualities of life for these heroes, ahead of the large reworks...
Senior Member
pretty sure that's still and always has been warlord.Originally Posted by Cliff_001 Go to original post
Member
Not true actually warlord has a good sizeable move list but you can't even scroll down wardens.Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
Senior Member
Well these were changes done to specifically balance out their power back when people could spam them. This was a very early decision back when the defensive meta as a concept was pretty new. so it was a pretty awful short term fix that's just stuck around for a long time. i'm sure these will be changed.Originally Posted by Justicator Go to original post
