🛈 Announcement
Greetings! The Division forums are now archived and accessible in read-only mode, please go to the new platform to discuss the game
  1. #61
    Mad-Cap's Avatar Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    2,737
    Originally Posted by III_Hammer_III Go to original post
    And yet again, we are not trying to merely define "gambling". The definition of "gamble" includes "to take a chance", so you can say you are "gambling" when you open an in-game cache, but also when you try jumping over a large puddle you are not sure you can jump over, ask someone in a bar if you can sit next to them, go on a picnic when it looks it's going to rain, etc...

    Let's be serious here. The idea of defining opening in-game caches as "gambling", is not merely to ascertain whether you take a chance or not in opening one. It is purposely trying to equate opening an in-game cache with activities regulated by Gaming Control Boards. What we are trying to do, is ascertain whether opening an in-game cache equates to playing a slot machine, which was the original assertion.

    When you put a dollar in a slot machine, pull the lever, and none of the right combinations comes up, you do not get .30˘ towards your next pull. You get absolutely nothing. You have to use real life money for your next attempt.

    When you open an in-game cache, you do get 3 items off that cache. If they are duplicates, then you are given a percentage of your cost (key fragments) back towards your next roll. You don't have to use money to buy keys or fragments, they are available in game, and have a fairly high drop rate.

    Obviously not the same thing, by a mile.
    I can't believe you missed the notion that you can't earn slot machine pulls by running laps around the casino.
     1 people found this helpful
    Share this post

  2. #62
    Mad-Cap's Avatar Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    2,737
    PGG Update... @Hammer... "for the children"
     1 people found this helpful
    Share this post

  3. #63
    DeMizeFPS's Avatar Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    3,108
    Loot boxes are like bump fire stocks.

    Bump fire stocks on semi-automatic rifles mimic automatic fire when fired
    Bump fire stocks on semi-automatic rifles does not make the firearm into a fully automatic machine gun. It is not considered as an automatic weapon by the ATF.
    Bump fire stocks are not subject to regulation and ATF allowed their sale as an unregulated firearm part.

    Loot boxes mimic gambling by a game of chance of getting an item.
    Loot boxes encourage the addictive gambling behaviors. It is not considered as gambling by ESRB
    Loot boxes are not subject to regulation by the gaming commission and governments allowed their sale as an unregulated microtransaction

    Both are loopholes that are being exploited.

    Automatic weapons are heavily regulated in the states and it's extremely hard to obtain one legally.
    You can mimic automatic fire with your semi-automatic rifle with a bump fire stock. No paperwork is needed and it's legal.

    Publishers are exploiting loot boxes by preying on minors or adults that lack mental capacity. It's a predatory practice that nets them huge profits.
    Just go to party chat with kids playing Madden. They spent most of their time opening packs to improve their ultimate team and asking their parents for money to open more packs.

    End of the day, both requires regulation and oversight. Lootboxes should be considered as gambling just as bump fire stocks should be considered as a weapon modification.
    Share this post

  4. #64
    YodaMan 3D's Avatar Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    8,108
    Originally Posted by Demiz3r Go to original post
    Loot boxes are like bump fire stocks.

    Bump fire stocks on semi-automatic rifles mimic automatic fire when fired
    Bump fire stocks on semi-automatic rifles does not make the firearm into a fully automatic machine gun. It is not considered as an automatic weapon by the ATF.
    Bump fire stocks are not subject to regulation and ATF allowed their sale as an unregulated firearm part.

    Loot boxes mimic gambling by a game of chance of getting an item.
    Loot boxes encourage the addictive gambling behaviors. It is not considered as gambling by ESRB
    Loot boxes are not subject to regulation by the gaming commission and governments allowed their sale as an unregulated microtransaction

    Both are loopholes that are being exploited.

    Automatic weapons are heavily regulated in the states and it's extremely hard to obtain one legally.
    You can mimic automatic fire with your semi-automatic rifle with a bump fire stock. No paperwork is needed and it's legal.

    Publishers are exploiting loot boxes by preying on minors or adults that lack mental capacity. It's a predatory practice that nets them huge profits.
    Just go to party chat with kids playing Madden. They spent most of their time opening packs to improve their ultimate team and asking their parents for money to open more packs.

    End of the day, both requires regulation and oversight. Lootboxes should be considered as gambling just as bump fire stocks should be considered as a weapon modification.
    It is gambling, there are several countries and several states in the US, who are investigating it since the Battlefront 2 debacle. Lootboxes are games of chance that though players pay real money for or not it is still gambling. You can call it whatever allows you to sleep better at night and makes you feel ok with buying them, that's your business. It is still gambling.
    Share this post

  5. #65
    Mad-Cap's Avatar Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    2,737
    For those still interested in this. Chris Lee is moving forward with drafting a bill.

    Stuff like scaling a players RNG based on their spend habits is mentioned... So, the more you spend (algorithm) will lower your odds of the loot box yielding something rare.



    (I called the 21 age limit, )
    Share this post

  6. #66
    Originally Posted by III_Hammer_III Go to original post
    It can be easily denied. Slot machines in a casino do not give you a penny in return for your failed attempt, and you may never get anything in return at all. Matter of fact, it really boggles my mind that people don't see the difference. Or at the very least, choose to forfeit reason and logic in favor if pushing their narrative.
    By your logic, if casinos changed slot machines to guarantee at least a 1 penny payout, it would no longer be considered gambling.
    Share this post

  7. #67
    Mad-Cap's Avatar Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    2,737
    PGG's take on the Chris Lee video...

    Share this post

  8. #68
    RushLoongHammer's Avatar Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Location
    The Outback, Aus
    Posts
    3,818
    I like luck dips in games like the encrypted caches, but not paid ones.
    At the furthest extent, I'd be happy with paid cosmetics (You know what you're getting), but not paid luck dips.

    It's a small aspect I don't like about the Division; the paid lucky dips.
    But atleast, and thankfully, Massive isn't Bungie or EA and abusing the system and the players.

    I hope with the Division 2, they see what Micro-transactions and lootboxes are doing to Destiny 2.
    I hope Massive never bases a game around such scummy tactics.

    "Good will" of the players, in the long term is far more valuable than screwing over players for the short term.
     1 people found this helpful
    Share this post

  9. #69
    Mad-Cap's Avatar Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    2,737
    Originally Posted by RushLoongHammer Go to original post
    I like luck dips in games like the encrypted caches, but not paid ones.
    At the furthest extent, I'd be happy with paid cosmetics (You know what you're getting), but not paid luck dips.

    It's a small aspect I don't like about the Division; the paid lucky dips.
    But atleast, and thankfully, Massive isn't Bungie or EA and abusing the system and the players.

    I hope with the Division 2, they see what Micro-transactions and lootboxes are doing to Destiny 2.
    I hope Massive never bases a game around such scummy tactics.

    "Good will" of the players, in the long term is far more valuable than screwing over players for the short term.
    I was glad to see my still availabe items from Premium cache 1 available for direct purchase in 1.8
    It shows that they are thinking....
    Share this post

  10. #70
    Mad-Cap's Avatar Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    2,737
    China woke up the giant.

    Apple updated their Guideline: Apps with loot boxes now need to disclose odds to be on itunes...

    https://developer.apple.com/app-stor...n-app-purchase


    3.1 Payments
    3.1.1 In-App Purchase:
    If you want to unlock feature........
    Apps offering “loot boxes” or other mechanisms that provide randomized virtual items for purchase must disclose the odds of receiving each type of item to customers prior to purchase.

    PGG: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhyX4IoH7Zg
    Share this post