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  1. #31
    Originally Posted by Mad-Cap Go to original post
    But I didn't get the items... they were duplicates.
    Had they been awarded to me they would have been rewards,

    If the fragments are a consolation prize it implies that I lost.

    Winning and loosing are a key components to defining gambling.

    And yet again, we are not trying to merely define "gambling". The definition of "gamble" includes "to take a chance", so you can say you are "gambling" when you open an in-game cache, but also when you try jumping over a large puddle you are not sure you can jump over, ask someone in a bar if you can sit next to them, go on a picnic when it looks it's going to rain, etc...

    Let's be serious here. The idea of defining opening in-game caches as "gambling", is not merely to ascertain whether you take a chance or not in opening one. It is purposely trying to equate opening an in-game cache with activities regulated by Gaming Control Boards. What we are trying to do, is ascertain whether opening an in-game cache equates to playing a slot machine, which was the original assertion.

    When you put a dollar in a slot machine, pull the lever, and none of the right combinations comes up, you do not get .30˘ towards your next pull. You get absolutely nothing. You have to use real life money for your next attempt.

    When you open an in-game cache, you do get 3 items off that cache. If they are duplicates, then you are given a percentage of your cost (key fragments) back towards your next roll. You don't have to use money to buy keys or fragments, they are available in game, and have a fairly high drop rate.

    Obviously not the same thing, by a mile.
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  2. #32
    For me it was just a matter of time for this topic to rise to public recognition [that there are some "gambling-like" parts embedded in certain video games].

    What bothers me personally is the fact that there is no oversight as far as I know.

    None of the gamers will ever know, IF there actually IS a certain "special" item [MDR/Barret's Vest, etc] available at the times when they should.
    Meaning, some people might spent [more and more] money on the chance of obtaining a promised item that might or might not be actual available.

    It's not enough from the companies to feed their customers some un-confirmed info like "the chance of getting a MDR is 1.5 % when there's NO oversight whatsoever.

    I recognize that the "gambling/not gambling" issue is not easy to solve and in a wider perspective I'd say that people are responsible for their actions, yet I also see the potential danger that looms for people who are prone to getting "lured" into a "gambling-like" situation.

    This will be a VERY interesting exchange of opinions - here on this forum and elsewhere.
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  3. #33
    Mad-Cap's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by III_Hammer_III Go to original post
    And yet again, we are not trying to merely define "gambling". The definition of "gamble" includes "to take a chance", so you can say you are "gambling" when you open an in-game cache, but also when you try jumping over a large puddle you are not sure you can jump over, ask someone in a bar if you can sit next to them, go on a picnic when it looks it's going to rain, etc...

    Let's be serious here. The idea of defining opening in-game caches as "gambling", is not merely to ascertain whether you take a chance or not in opening one. It is purposely trying to equate opening an in-game cache with activities regulated by Gaming Control Boards. What we are trying to do, is ascertain whether opening an in-game cache equates to playing a slot machine, which was the original assertion.

    When you put a dollar in a slot machine, pull the lever, and none of the right combinations comes up, you do not get .30˘ towards your next pull. You get absolutely nothing. You have to use real life money for your next attempt.

    When you open an in-game cache, you do get 3 items off that cache. If they are duplicates, then you are given a percentage of your cost (key fragments) back towards your next roll. You don't have to use money to buy keys or fragments, they are available in game, and have a fairly high drop rate.

    Obviously not the same thing, by a mile.
    TD isn't really the best example with loot boxes, they have done a good job with their marketplace, no question. Regardless if some people trying to equate the lock-boxes with slot machines.

    We are on the same page in so far as Casino gambling vs Video game loot boxes... they are not the same thing,
    The behavior and psychology behind the impulse to purchase is however, the same. All I'm saying is that it needs to be looked at and regulated in some way (yes, for the children).
    The big point is that EA crossed the line with a Disney IP and brought the discussion into the cross hairs of Governments.

    I think any gamer would rather buy a digital item outright than over-pay with RNG chances in a loot box game for the item. Gambling or not, developers are playing gamers for fools and calling it fun.
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  4. #34
    Originally Posted by III_Hammer_III Go to original post
    And yet again, we are not trying to merely define "gambling". The definition of "gamble" includes "to take a chance", so you can say you are "gambling" when you open an in-game cache, but also when you try jumping over a large puddle you are not sure you can jump over, ask someone in a bar if you can sit next to them, go on a picnic when it looks it's going to rain, etc...

    Let's be serious here. The idea of defining opening in-game caches as "gambling", is not merely to ascertain whether you take a chance or not in opening one. It is purposely trying to equate opening an in-game cache with activities regulated by Gaming Control Boards. What we are trying to do, is ascertain whether opening an in-game cache equates to playing a slot machine, which was the original assertion.

    When you put a dollar in a slot machine, pull the lever, and none of the right combinations comes up, you do not get .30˘ towards your next pull. You get absolutely nothing. You have to use real life money for your next attempt.

    When you open an in-game cache, you do get 3 items off that cache. If they are duplicates, then you are given a percentage of your cost (key fragments) back towards your next roll. You don't have to use money to buy keys or fragments, they are available in game, and have a fairly high drop rate.

    Obviously not the same thing, by a mile.
    If I want to buy cipher keys then I have to convert my money to premium credits. That is the actual purchase I make. Then I convert the premium credits to cipher key fragments.
    If the cache contains duplicates then I get a partial refund of cipher key fragments, not my costs. There is no return of actual funds at any stage.

    It is NOT a refund. It's a psychological trick to get you to try again. Basically, it's like saying "The next spin will cost less now. Go on, try again".

    It is true that you don't need to use cash if you are immune to these psychological tricks, but the people they're targeting are not. That's why it works.

    Key fragments do not have a high drop rate. The drop rate is just enough to annoy those trying to collect them. It's been tuned a few times since they were introduced. They're very carefully manipulating the people who are weak to these sorts of tricks.

    I hope loot boxes get wiped from full-price games as soon as possible. They're taking the fun out of gaming
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  5. #35
    Who cares if its defined as gambling or not. You people really have nothing better to do than argur a null point? Its a dirty scheme and doesnt belong anywhere.
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  6. #36
    Mad-Cap's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by PopnYoAss Go to original post
    Who cares if its defined as gambling or not. You people really have nothing better to do than argur a null point? Its a dirty scheme and doesnt belong anywhere.
    In want context is it 'dirty' ?
    If a player can earn the chances in game in a reasonable amount of time - it's just part of the game. I would classify TD in that category. The Lock-Boxes here are not really any different than gear caches.

    The context changes when real world money in involved in purchasing the chances or it's a game directed at kids. Mobile games are far worse and yet it took a EA, Disney and Star wars to create enough smoke for people to yell fire. (because, kids)

    I think the 'gambling' definition is just hyperbole people like to argue over to create the impression that loot boxes are somehow illegal, when in fact they are just undefined and unregulated.
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  7. #37
    Originally Posted by Mad-Cap Go to original post
    In want context is it 'dirty' ?
    If a player can earn the chances in game in a reasonable amount of time - it's just part of the game. I would classify TD in that category. The Lock-Boxes here are not really any different than gear caches.

    The context changes when real world money in involved in purchasing the chances or it's a game directed at kids. Mobile games are far worse and yet it took a EA, Disney and Star wars to create enough smoke for people to yell fire. (because, kids)

    I think the 'gambling' definition is just hyperbole people like to argue over to create the impression that loot boxes are somehow illegal, when in fact they are just undefined and unregulated.
    Because the game was already paid for. Why should we have to pay more for anything when i already paid for the game and the season pass? Just a dirty scheme to squeeze more money. If you havent seen 21 kilotons on youtube you should. Some of us have had an issue with it before it even released. Only difference here is we dont have as big a voice and are some how labeled the bad guys for criticizing poor marketing tactics.
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  8. #38
    Corrupt.be's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by JenPeKev Go to original post
    It's not enough from the companies to feed their customers some un-confirmed info like "the chance of getting a MDR is 1.5 % when there's NO oversight whatsoever.
    I'm convinced the Classified drop rate is partially a lie.

    Started going to the DZ again to farm up to 4K Div Tech for 1.8.

    2 days: 5 Classified drops from DZ 7-8-9. I get the feeling the drop rate in the harder parts of the DZ is higher then everywhere else in the game.

    Originally Posted by Mad-Cap Go to original post
    I think the 'gambling' definition is just hyperbole people like to argue over to create the impression that loot boxes are somehow illegal, when in fact they are just undefined and unregulated.
    True, but atm it's good that the discussion flares up because:

    • If it reaches a certain obvious gambling threshold, a license for gambling should be required
    • It also keeps the developers in check: the core business should be designing good games, not designing a game that can facilitate gambling
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  9. #39
    Originally Posted by PopnYoAss Go to original post
    Because the game was already paid for. Why should we have to pay more for anything when i already paid for the game and the season pass?
    You are playing a game that requires infrastructure/overhead that is not cheap to run. They are a for profit company. They had bills/utilities/salaries to pay.

    Just a dirty scheme to squeeze more money.
    Why is it "dirty"?

    If you havent seen 21 kilotons on youtube you should. Some of us have had an issue with it before it even released. .
    I don't think I need to hear more wanton insults with a big dose of hyperbole tossed at Ubisoft/Massive. But, apparently, in the age of youtube/twitter/facebook, that's all most people have, and can't do without them..
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  10. #40
    Its dirty because its a waste of money and targets simple people. Who in there right mind would spend money at a slim chance to recieve a digital piece of clothing? I understand they have bills but they chose their career path and i chose mine. If youre living outside your means you should adjust, or god forbid produce a product that people want and will pay money for?
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