How to help balance Shaman.. | Forums

[UbiInsulin]

Knight_Raime, thanks very much for this thread. While I don't want to force anyone to post in any more detail than they feel like, it is great for us to see suggested tweaks to specific parts of the Shaman's moveset, or to read about particular situations where the Shaman can be very hard to counter (and why).

The mode, the hero you're playing, and the map can all make a big difference in where you're coming from. There's no such thing as too much info from our perspective!

[Bracus_Maximus]

Jumping attacks ( dont remember its name )

Keep all 3 directions and he speed/tracking/damage
But as its a really fast attack hard to react too because of the animation dont clearly shows from which direction will it come from, increase the reward for parrying it as like shinobi's range attack parry so the shaman gets on the ground. And/or on blocking it grants a light against the shaman.

Pounce/bite

Make it seperate by for example jumping backwards the release grants a pounce, the forward grants a bite( if the target is bleeding, if not the its also a pounce). I found many situations in 1v2 or more when i wanted that little push to ledge and not bite. Biting in 1v2 situation is a confirmed death. This may be a buff or not depends.
Now the clear nerf. By using bite the shaman enters the blood trance visually too ( i dont know why it wasnt implemented ) like raging or something which takes a little time then jumps. You cant cancel it after the entering trance is over. This means the opponent can clearly see its coming makes it only usable against a stunned/gb'ed opponent
And if its still not enough:
2. If she fails the jump the shamans hp gets drained until she can get some blood in her mouth but keeping the tracking and speed as it is now.
3. She sacrifices her own 1 bar dmg before she jumps and keeping everything as it is now ( does the same dmg as it is now but gets back her sacrificed hp too )

Edit: rep5 shaman on pc dominion/duel

[CandleInTheDark]

3. She sacrifices her own 1 bar dmg before she jumps and keeping everything as it is now ( does the same dmg as it is now but gets back her sacrificed hp too )

I honestly don't agree with a penalty for missing, I know people make the shugoki point but ask yourself why does the shugoki have that damage on miss? Demon's embrace can come at any time,doing varying degrees of damage and healing the shugoki. Now yes predator's mercy also does damage and heals but she is not able to pull off the move at any time, she first has to make the opponent bleed. The damage on miss is effectively an anti 'spam and hope' deterrent which predator's mercy does not need due to its situational nature.

The fact that she cannot just do it at any time is the reason lacking the damage on miss is balanced in that respect next to demon's embrace. The only way that damage on miss is balanced is if shugoki has to do something else to have the move available or for the shaman to have predator's mercy, damage, healing and all, at any time.

[Knight_Raime]

There is one problem I have with the second pounce though I guess it would be the same on the first. If I go out of stamina in activating it, it does not affect the attempt at tackling the opponent. If I had missed that second pounce I would have been in trouble, especially against the berserker it came up against, but it seemed a little cheap. Of course when they change the tracking, it might be not as much of a problem if that second pounce suddenly becomes more reactable.

Does shugo have an issue if he runs out of stamina doing the demons embrace?
But I kind of agree. I think it really seems unfair that she gets all stamina back from a bite. It enables her to be stupidly aggressive.
Which would be fine if she was a bit easier to punish. It might be something the should nerf.

[Knight_Raime]

Does it matter what hero? Lol she's not impossible to beat just an annoying hero to go against like a pk on sterioids after they have tweak her numbers she will still be a very strong hero defentily has one of the best kits so its guna take a while for anyone to learn her moves I do think they should get less health from bleed and the bite does a bit more damage then it should but these are simple number tweaks I just hope it doesn't take a season and a half to do

If this is in relation on the fact that this thread is talking about Shaman then yes. These are rules that you should apply to any balance discussion.
In my opinion the retaliation on Shaman feels bigger than the retaliation of Centurion back when he launched. So that's why I made this thread.

[Knight_Raime]

Knight_Raime, thanks very much for this thread. While I don't want to force anyone to post in any more detail than they feel like, it is great for us to see suggested tweaks to specific parts of the Shaman's moveset, or to read about particular situations where the Shaman can be very hard to counter (and why).

The mode, the hero you're playing, and the map can all make a big difference in where you're coming from. There's no such thing as too much info from our perspective!

Glad the post is helpful~

[Knight_Raime]

Jumping attacks ( dont remember its name )

Keep all 3 directions and he speed/tracking/damage
But as its a really fast attack hard to react too because of the animation dont clearly shows from which direction will it come from, increase the reward for parrying it as like shinobi's range attack parry so the shaman gets on the ground. And/or on blocking it grants a light against the shaman.

Pounce/bite

Make it seperate by for example jumping backwards the release grants a pounce, the forward grants a bite( if the target is bleeding, if not the its also a pounce). I found many situations in 1v2 or more when i wanted that little push to ledge and not bite. Biting in 1v2 situation is a confirmed death. This may be a buff or not depends.
Now the clear nerf. By using bite the shaman enters the blood trance visually too ( i dont know why it wasnt implemented ) like raging or something which takes a little time then jumps. You cant cancel it after the entering trance is over. This means the opponent can clearly see its coming makes it only usable against a stunned/gb'ed opponent
And if its still not enough:
2. If she fails the jump the shamans hp gets drained until she can get some blood in her mouth but keeping the tracking and speed as it is now.
3. She sacrifices her own 1 bar dmg before she jumps and keeping everything as it is now ( does the same dmg as it is now but gets back her sacrificed hp too )

Edit: rep5 shaman on pc dominion/duel

I appreciate this reply structure.

Her dash attacks are wildcats rage for the back and front dodges. I forget the side ones but it's another wildcats one. ANYWAY.
I think the should fix the de sync on her forward/backwards dash heavies before nerfing it in any significant way. its tracking too.

Bout the pounce/bite change. That is actually a pretty clever change i'll have to think on it more. But i'm liking the sound of it.
So bleed pokes wouldn't get you into trance anymore? I'm kind of confused here on what you're attempting. a rewording would be helpful.

I don't think there should be some loss on her end for a whiffed pounce. She already gets an untechable GB if it's dodged (providing you are close enough.)
Can I ask why you want to include some kind of loss on her end for missing? What you think your change would fix?

[Bracus_Maximus]

I honestly don't agree with a penalty for missing, I know people make the shugoki point but ask yourself why does the shugoki have that damage on miss? Demon's embrace can come at any time,doing varying degrees of damage and healing the shugoki. Now yes predator's mercy also does damage and heals but she is not able to pull off the move at any time, she first has to make the opponent bleed. The damage on miss is effectively an anti 'spam and hope' deterrent which predator's mercy does not need due to its situational nature.

The fact that she cannot just do it at any time is the reason lacking the damage on miss is balanced in that respect next to demon's embrace. The only way that damage on miss is balanced is if shugoki has to do something else to have the move available or for the shaman to have predator's mercy, damage, healing and all, at any time.

Well you wont use it unless you want to and the enemy bleeds anyway. The speed and the tracking as it is now along with the feint is too much almost a guaranteed bite. It would be the same but you would be more punished if you miss. Its also not demon embrance, its like 3x faster and feintable.
I would stay with my first suggestion to make it seperate from pounce and make a short cutscene before the jump or the second one to activate a feat like thing by the first jump which makes the shammy lose some hp slowly if she dont get any blood from the opponent's neck.

[CandleInTheDark]

Does shugo have an issue if he runs out of stamina doing the demons embrace?
But I kind of agree. I think it really seems unfair that she gets all stamina back from a bite. It enables her to be stupidly aggressive.
Which would be fine if she was a bit easier to punish. It might be something the should nerf.

Fair point, and as I said, I would have been in trouble had I missed.

Well you wont use it unless you want to and the enemy bleeds anyway. The speed and the tracking as it is now along with the feint is too much almost a guaranteed bite. It would be the same but you would be more punished if you miss. Its also not demon embrance, its like 3x faster and feintable.
I would stay with my first suggestion to make it seperate from pounce and make a short cutscene before the jump or the second one to activate a feat like thing by the first jump which makes the shammy lose some hp slowly if she dont get any blood from the opponent's neck.

There are already natural punishes on her spamming predator's mercy though.Firstly as Raime said, if you are close enough you get a free gb, also consider this, what happens if you hit a shugoki charging at you? He takes the hit, scoops you up regardless, gets the health back. Now if the shaman gets hit, she takes damage and is hit out of the move. Predator's mercy and Demon's embrace may have the same effect but they are completely different moves which require different balancing and while the tracking and recovery should be looked at, she is or should be already punishable enough that taking damage on top of everything else is a step too far. If you want to give her a damage on miss, you also have to ask yourself how do you then balance the fact that she does not have hyper armour on it and that she cannot hit it at will at any time. Not that I think she should have hyper armour or activate on will, don't get me wrong, I am just saying that the move has different balance requirements without these and that taking damage would be excessive.

It might be hard to actually punish her right now in terms of dodging her or getting an attack in, but that is what needs to be balanced as those are natural deterrents which again demon's embrace, which is also less situational and needs the added deterrent or it would be spammed, does not have.

[Pain-Seeker]

Playing every game mode except deathmatch (PC)

Shaman needs mostly change in numbers not the kit itself.
The things that needs to be removed is her bite being cancable . A 400ms UB , unparryable that can be feinted is the same thing as shinobis kick pre nerf . Not to say he needed to dash twice which is a lot easier to see than the little movement shaman makes. Also confimed bite on throw is ********.I can accept on a wallsplat but a simple thrown is ******ed.

Number fixes

Bite = reduce speed by 100ms . This together with the move no longer being canceable will stop the spam for free light attks or wallspat
Dodge attk = either reduce speed by 100ms at least and make it a light attk or reduce dmg to a light attk. Dont see the reason behind 500ms dodge attk with dmg of heavy .
Leaping attk= same thing as dodge attk
Throw distance = as posted by many players her thrown distance is HUGE , the highest from all characters if iam not mistaken (if iam ,sorry) lower it to any other assassins lvl .
OSS punish = this just doesnt make sense with all the things in her kit . Not realy sure how to fix this without lowering the dmg of the attks them self . Maybe allow her to chain a heavy but not the UB one
Soft feint bleed attks = on this one iam not sure about the speed itself but iam pretty sure at least top soft feint is 400ms ( not sure if all or just the top ) .500ms soft feints are more than enough .

Another thing that bothers me is her ability to chain bleed attk after whiffed UB heavy . Wasent able to parry it yet so iam not sure if it as 400ms or 500ms . But this pretty much makes the UB to safe from dodging. Since parrying is not so viable thanks to her soft feints this makes her even more unpunishable.