How to help balance Shaman.. | Forums

[Knight_Raime]

In the probably futile hopes of this post i'm attempting to write a "guide" of sorts on how we as a community can come together and actually create a place of information for the developers. To us something might be easy to understand or a "no brainer." But for the sake of being clear it's best to be as detailed as possible while staying as direct as possible. The developers are 100% aware of how people feel about Shaman right now so we don't need to be loud or spam them/forums trying to get their attention. There are a few other things that you should avoid when trying to construct a post for the devs to see:

~Avoid hyperbolic statements. These would be things like "Shaman's pounce is literally unreactable."

~Avoid absolute statements. These would be things like "she's factually the best hero in the game."

~Avoid insults, excessive swearing, vulgarity etc. It's entirely possible for you to create a well written and passionate post without swearing six times over or insulting the developers abilities.

~Avoid using consoles or 30 fps as a back bone to your argument. It is harder to handle things on console yes. But there is plenty of evidence out there on the internet of console players handling super fast things just fine. Even if you don't believe me on that they don't balance things exclusively for one platform or the other. So you'll need different proof to prove the issue.

That I think wraps it up on what to avoid. Before we get into the tips on how to construct a post/thread though I should mention that for the time being we should not ask for nerfs to her speed in any shape or form. Currently some of her attacks are "bugged" and the time in which she loses stamina for doing the move doesn't match the animation itself or the indicator. Not to mention speed issues in general are exacerbated with the lack of lag compensation. In short if they addressed speed related issues now when the devs finally get around to adding their new lag comp system in they will likely have to go back and tweak speeds again. Anyway, moving on.

There are many things about her kit that are frustrating or powerful for sure. But in order to write a well written post on adjusting a hero you have to start small. Pick one move that the hero does that you take issue with...for example sake lets take Shaman's pounce. What is wrong with her pounce? What exactly does pounce do for her kit? Both of these questions are important. The former is what establishes the issue for the developers as clear as day. The latter is something you need to constantly consider when thinking about making a change. You might come up with a perfect fix to your issue with pounce. But it could have unintended issues with the rest of the kit.

The typical post related about the pounce goes something like "it's a stupidly fast unblockable that is impossible to react to and gives free insane damage." While this sort of paints a picture for the developers it's too messy to identify one specific problem. Nor does it offer a solution. In short it's just noise. A better post about pounce would be:
"Pounce feels unfair because you can cancel between it and wildcats rage or just hard feint it all relatively quickly creating a mess of indicators on the receiving end."

That's much more detailed and easy to follow. But it still doesn't offer a solution. In order to come up with a proper suggestion you need 2 things. To understand what that specific move does for the kit/what the kit's overall design was. And what kind of impact your change would have not only on the kit itself but to all skill levels. A solution you come up with might work just fine for high tier play but it might just make things much harder for low to mid tier play. So you'd have fixed the issue in top tier play but created another in a different skill bracket. It's always a good idea to balance from the top to bottom but that doesn't mean ignoring the impact a change can have on the lower ends of skill brackets.

One suggested change I saw that I wouldn't consider to be a good one for fixing pounce was removing the ability to feint it. That does fix the written issue I wrote. But it ruins the purpose of the ability. In my opinion the whole point of pounce and what it effects is to support an in and out kind of playstyle. Removing the feint option means she will struggle to get in. Which hurts the kit overall. a better suggestion would be to do one of 2 things either: A) change up the circumstances on which pounce can be feinted OR B) reducing the rewards from a successful pounce. Both would still allow Shaman to do as her kit was designed but make it more understandable or less bad feeling on the receiving end.

I think that about covers it. I'm not going to tell you that you can't write how you feel or that you shouldn't be heard if you don't adhere to these tips. My entire point is that if you really truly do care about the game and want to have more fun with it you're going to have to put this kind of effort into your threads/replies. It's the only way the developers will know what truly is the issue and the only way they will actually listen. Afterall if we can't be respectful and clear with them why should the bother doing that with us?

Feel free to use this thread as a practice place to write your own posts. Or if you want to add any tips on writing threads/posts feel free to share them. Just stay respectful and kind. See you out on the battlefields. :>

[Alustar.exe]

I think it would be important to note what game modes you pay regularly as well. This can help the devs identify better what and where the problems are.

[Knight_Raime]

I think it would be important to note what game modes you pay regularly as well. This can help the devs identify better what and where the problems are.

upvoted. that is indeed SUPER important information to give. I'm an established duelist around here (some people forget) but it does make me blind to balance on a pretty large scale since I don't really know too much about how kits play out in 4v4. It caused quite a bit of frustration with discussion back during centurions reign whenever I spoke outwordly about him.

[David_gorda]

Op Pounce is simply to fast and has to good tracking, it might be on to have that speed and if you miss you take Same damage as the shugoki, and yes it matters if you play on console or PC dont be rediculous. The rest Of her kit might be fine but the Pounce definitly need speed and tracking nerf or some huge drawback if you miss instead Of just doing the Pounce again.

[Alustar.exe]

upvoted. that is indeed SUPER important information to give. I'm an established duelist around here (some people forget) but it does make me blind to balance on a pretty large scale since I don't really know too much about how kits play out in 4v4. It caused quite a bit of frustration with discussion back during centurions reign whenever I spoke outwordly about him.

The centurion debacle is precisely why I mention it, that and I'm like you but opposite. I'm **** at duels, but excel at 4v4. I haven't been able to get into many skirmish matches since they changed death match up, but I'll give my thoughts on her as soon as "I have more data."

[Knight_Raime]

Op Pounce is simply to fast and has to good tracking, it might be on to have that speed and if you miss you take Same damage as the shugoki, and yes it matters if you play on console or PC dont be rediculous. The rest Of her kit might be fine but the Pounce definitly need speed and tracking nerf or some huge drawback if you miss instead Of just doing the Pounce again.

I'd personally have to disagree on the speed of it. I find it decently reactable as is. Pretty much the only time i'm tripped up is if they cancel in my face. But i'd imagine i'll get better at reading that the more I play. Anyway I think the transitions between cancels is a bigger problem then the speed of a pounce outright. As far as tracking goes though the devs have recognized that and are fixing it. Hopefully they can look into the tracking of her wildcats rage as well.

I did not say it didn't matter. I stated that you'll need better reasoning than your platform to get anywhere with the devs. You and I could argue till our fingers are worn and hurt from typing about wether or not it's an actual problem. It's not the point. The devs acknowledged a long time ago how things were more difficult on console. Their solution was giving us finer tuning controls for controllers and that was the end of it. They have stated they will not balance things seperately. So you can either accept this and move on making better arguments about your issues or you can just leave since you're not satisfied with their approach.

Correct me if i'm wrong but you can only pounce after a missed pounce if you have triggered bleed on your enemy. I think that's fine. as either way a missed pounce/bite can be GBed or dodge attacked for a counter.

[Knight_Raime]

The centurion debacle is precisely why I mention it, that and I'm like you but opposite. I'm **** at duels, but excel at 4v4. I haven't been able to get into many skirmish matches since they changed death match up, but I'll give my thoughts on her as soon as "I have more data."

I'd be all over 4v4 if they could give us a mode without feats or gear. :<
tribute looks fun as heck though. I might be giving that a go once i've got a better hang of Aramusha.

[Alustar.exe]

Correct me if i'm wrong but you can only pounce after a missed pounce if you have triggered bleed on your enemy. I think that's fine. as either way a missed pounce/bite can be GBed or dodge attacked for a counter.

That is correct, you.com only trigger the last chance mechanic when in blood trance, other wise a whiffed Hunger is extremely punishable. Hell even a miss Mercy is punishable. As of yet I haven't miss the first and been able to land the second.

I'd be all over 4v4 if they could give us a mode without feats or gear. :<
tribute looks fun as heck though. I might be giving that a go once i've got a better hang of Aramusha.

Yeah it would be nice to see a bare bones skirmish match soon, but that's a topic for another thread

[Knight_Raime]

That is correct, you.com only trigger the last chance mechanic when in blood trance, other wise a whiffed Hunger is extremely punishable. Hell even a miss Mercy is punishable. As of yet I haven't miss the first and been able to land the second.



Yeah it would be nice to see a bare bones skirmish match soon, but that's a topic for another thread

Just wanted to be sure. I've only had that particular situation pop up twice and the first time I dodged both the first and second bite attempt and punished the second. The second instance I got nabbed by the second pounce because I wasn't close enough to punish but tried anyway because i'm overly aggressive and it gets me killed. a lot.

[Alustar.exe]

Op Pounce is simply to fast and has to good tracking, it might be on to have that speed and if you miss you take Same damage as the shugoki, and yes it matters if you play on console or PC dont be rediculous. The rest Of her kit might be fine but the Pounce definitly need speed and tracking nerf or some huge drawback if you miss instead Of just doing the Pounce again.

The problem most players are having when dodging Hunger/Mercy is they initially attempt to dodge back. Don't ever do this. The move has three phases. The leap initiation, the run, and the pounce. Currentlyplayers are all attempting to dodge during the first two "start up" animations and this is causing a failed dodge that results in a confirmed pounce. You need to wait and time your dodge during the last prom of the run or at the start of the actual pounce, then dodge to either side. Remember, is a straight leap, so side step and be ready to steal with either a dodge attack it a light immediately after your recovery.
Or grab her. Either way