Shinobi the new centurion. | Forums

[Antonioj26]

I'll just leave this here, because I feel, despite probably upsetting people, the truth needs to be thrown out there.

1) Shinobi is not OP and really never was. Just because you have difficulty against a certain character does not mean they need a nerf.

2) he only got buffed on his stamina so he would be able to accomplish his basic mechanic of double dash after chains etc. without instantly running out of stamina, and his health so that he was no longer a two shot character. He didn't get buffed on damage output or defense.

3) Shinobi is perhaps one of the most predictable characters in the game

4) his kicks after dodge are very punishable, and so are all ranged attacks if parried (they are all heavy attacks so should be relatively easy even for those not so good at parrying) or gb (also very easy to do), pulling the Shinobi to the ground for free damage.

5) if you're having trouble with Shinobi, it is most likely because you relied on them going OOS and punishing with ease, and/or were used to two shoting them. All it takes is an adjustment. I suggest practicing a good 30 mins with all of his moves and watching advanced guide videos to understand his kit, what he can and cannot do, and through this you will inherently get better in a Shinobi match up.

6) Shinobi players tend to dodge a lot. Heavy feint so they try to double dodge kick and gb. Gets a lot of them especially if your attack has HA (kensei, zerk, warlord, HL, shugoki) as they won't be able to trade thus most of the time attempt to just dodge.

1. If you've ever played at a competitive level you would know this is demonstrably false. Shin at release may be the strongest character there ever was with shugo pre cheese nerf the only one who might have been close.

2. True. Though more stamina means more potential for mixups or dodging which means more defense

3. This is subjective but would say this is wrong since his moveset is wider than just about every original cast member

4.https://m.youtube.com/?reload=7&rdm=...&v=dYVvpAUzg1I Tell that to warden. Warden isn't the only one that has this issue either. Parrying long ranged attacks don't work if they are smart enough to not use them unless they know it's safe.

5. This is just an assumption on the opponent and not actually anything to do with shins kit or shin.

6. might work some of the time but now he can survive up to 4-5 heavies meaning that you got to make this work quite a bit to finish him off and how many times is this going to fool an experienced shin?

Im not even saying he's OP as of now, I'm just saying you were wrong on just about everything you said.

[mrmistark]

1. If you've ever played at a competitive level you would know this is demonstrably false. Shin at release may be the strongest character there ever was with shugo pre cheese nerf the only one who might have been close.

2. True. Though more stamina means more potential for mixups or dodging which means more defense

3. This is subjective but would say this is wrong since his moveset is wider than just about every original cast member

4.https://m.youtube.com/?reload=7&rdm=...&v=dYVvpAUzg1I Tell that to warden. Warden isn't the only one that has this issue either. Parrying long ranged attacks don't work if they are smart enough to not use them unless they know it's safe.

5. This is just an assumption on the opponent and not actually anything to do with shins kit or shin.

6. might work some of the time but now he can survive up to 4-5 heavies meaning that you got to make this work quite a bit to finish him off and how many times is this going to fool an experienced shin?

Im not even saying he's OP as of now, I'm just saying you were wrong on just about everything you said.

1) I do and have, he's never been an honest problemexcept for in a ganking situation. There is a reason Shinobi hasn't seen a lot of play except for release (when he first came out) and currently (due to buffs that make him not the weakest character in the game anymore). That's because frankly his health sucked, and really his stamina pool was horrible too.

2) yes, he may be able to have more mix up potential now, but on the level that valk has a shield bash mix up. It comes in a prescribed time of other moves making it at least back of mind anticipated if you know Shinobi play style at all, and it still being reactable makes it still very punishable.

3) again, may have many moves, but if you understand at which times he can use these moves They shouldn't give you that much trouble.

4) the example in your video was not a ranged attack, so not sure what exactly you're going for on this one. All charged range attacks are all punishable. That's a fact...

5) "most likely". Key quote there. So you'd be correct. If you'd read the OP post you'd understand he is having trouble against Shinobi. this post is not only focused on Shinobi, rather OPs difficulty.

6) in my experience, works about 2 times. It works quite well honestly. If your opponent gets used to it then they just will stop dodging, which against Shinobi is a good thing. Come to think of it, there goes a good chunk of the viabl "extensive moveset" once they become too skidish to dodge your heavies.

[Antonioj26]

1) I do and have, he's never been an honest problemexcept for in a ganking situation. There is a reason Shinobi hasn't seen a lot of play except for release (when he first came out) and currently (due to buffs that make him not the weakest character in the game anymore). That's because frankly his health sucked, and really his stamina pool was horrible too.

2) yes, he may be able to have more mix up potential now, but on the level that valk has a shield bash mix up. It comes in a prescribed time of other moves making it at least back of mind anticipated if you know Shinobi play style at all, and it still being reactable makes it still very punishable.

3) again, may have many moves, but if you understand at which times he can use these moves They shouldn't give you that much trouble.

4) the example in your video was not a ranged attack, so not sure what exactly you're going for on this one. All charged range attacks are all punishable. That's a fact...

5) "most likely". Key quote there. So you'd be correct. If you'd read the OP post you'd understand he is having trouble against Shinobi. this post is not only focused on Shinobi, rather OPs difficulty.

6) in my experience, works about 2 times. It works quite well honestly. If your opponent gets used to it then they just will stop dodging, which against Shinobi is a good thing. Come to think of it, there goes a good chunk of the viabl "extensive moveset" once they become too skidish to dodge your heavies.

1.) doubt it, the competitive scene unanimously acknowledged how broken he was at release. After the nerf sure, but at release he destroyed.

2.) he still can do it more, I didn't say it was more effective

3.) still more than the majority of the original cast,

4.) you said the kick was highly punishable and I'm showing you it's not. No they are not all punishable, if he catches you in recovery frames you can't cgb

5.) don't care still nothing to do shin

6.) two times doesn't kill a shin especially if you're going to fight him more than once. Won't stop him from dodging as much as it stops or limits reactive dodges and if he knows proper spacing it's moot anyway

[mrmistark]

1.) doubt it, the competitive scene unanimously acknowledged how broken he was at release. After the nerf sure, but at release he destroyed.

2.) he still can do it more, I didn't say it was more effective

3.) still more than the majority of the original cast,

4.) you said the kick was highly punishable and I'm showing you it's not. No they are not all punishable, if he catches you in recovery frames you can't cgb

5.) don't care still nothing to do shin

6.) two times doesn't kill a shin especially if you're going to fight him more than once. Won't stop him from dodging as much as it stops or limits reactive dodges and if he knows proper spacing it's moot anyway

1) sure he was stronger on release, but honestly I wouldn't have called it op, guess that's an opinion from two sides of the coin.

2) if you didn't think it was more effective then what was your argument? Not being rude, genuinely curious. The buffs honestly gave him exactly what he needed to be rather balanced, or at least closer to.

3) more moves in theory is great, but if half of them arent viable/ punishable past reward, then it doesn't give more than what more condensed yet more safe/viable movesets offer in value.

4) perhaps the link starts on the wrong portion of the video, but what I watched through showed no kick, rather a simple double dodge into heavy. If a Shinobi is charging an attack, what would you be recovering from? Perhaps you are referring to Shinobi being a strong ganker and in a situation in which you are fighting another player? 1v1 his charge attacks are pretty mediocre at best.

5) if you don't care then leave this part out and/or don't post on a thread which 80% is the writers difficulties with said matchup.

6) 2 times doesn't kill a Shinobi. I never claimed it did. Shinobi non reactive dodges lead into predictable moves. This is a tool that works well for the reactive dodger. You're right in assuming you're in range for it to work, but then again, if you aren't skilled enough to get into range or punish their ranged attacks it's a lost cause anyways and you need more practice to begin with.

[Antonioj26]

1) sure he was stronger on release, but honestly I wouldn't have called it op, guess that's an opinion from two sides of the coin.

2) if you didn't think it was more effective then what was your argument? Not being rude, genuinely curious. The buffs honestly gave him exactly what he needed to be rather balanced, or at least closer to.

3) more moves in theory is great, but if half of them arent viable/ punishable past reward, then it doesn't give more than what more condensed yet more safe/viable movesets offer in value.

4) perhaps the link starts on the wrong portion of the video, but what I watched through showed no kick, rather a simple double dodge into heavy. If a Shinobi is charging an attack, what would you be recovering from? Perhaps you are referring to Shinobi being a strong ganker and in a situation in which you are fighting another player? 1v1 his charge attacks are pretty mediocre at best.

5) if you don't care then leave this part out and/or don't post on a thread which 80% is the writers difficulties with said matchup.

6) 2 times doesn't kill a Shinobi. I never claimed it did. Shinobi non reactive dodges lead into predictable moves. This is a tool that works well for the reactive dodger. You're right in assuming you're in range for it to work, but then again, if you aren't skilled enough to get into range or punish their ranged attacks it's a lost cause anyways and you need more practice to begin with.

1.) depends on what you're definition of OP is, but if he wasn't then no one was because he's hands down the best character at that time.

2.) I meant they are the same he can just do them more.

3.) I hate to sound like a broken record but....

4.) the charge gb is almost instant you can catch them on whiffed attacks or dodge recovery. https://m.youtube.com/watch?&v=dYVvpAUzg1I Sorry I don't know why it started at that mark that was weird and my fault

6.) shin can control the fight, he decides when to engage or disengage. That's his strongest suit, if he doesn't want to fight you you are not going to fight him.

[tumenergia]

Shinobi shouldn't be nerfed. He still has the lowest health. slowest heavy, bad feats and worst zone attack.

Other characters can shoulderbash, shield bash, kick, pin down or stagger, shove in all kind of ways. Shinobi only has the kick. It is a good thing they reduced the stamina on that a bit

[Antonioj26]

Shinobi shouldn't be nerfed. He still has the lowest health. slowest heavy, bad feats and worst zone attack.

Other characters can shoulderbash, shield bash, kick, pin down or stagger, shove in all kind of ways. Shinobi only has the kick. It is a good thing they reduced the stamina on that a bit

Lowest health by 10 and shares the same with centurion. His heavies are not the slowest, first is 800 ms and 700ms that's average to slightly above average. His feats are fine, his number 4 passive is very strong. Zone is far from the worst it's 500ms, safe on block, and puts you out of gb range if parried. Some characters have those things you mentioned not all, and most aren't as effective as shins kick.

[Devils-_-legacy]

If parried he's either lying on the floor or he can be gb after. The tier 4 feat is strong ability so are other tier 4 feats catapult a one shot if hit javelin can take most of your health. he's a annoying hero but how is he over powered the kick is just a double dodge, one for the kick second for heavy or ranged gb highlander has a kick to gb that floors you i think

[Antonioj26]

If parried he's either lying on the floor or he can be gb after. The tier 4 feat is strong ability so are other tier 4 feats catapult a one shot if hit javelin can take most of your health. he's a annoying hero but how is he over powered the kick is just a double dodge, one for the kick second for heavy or ranged gb highlander has a kick to gb that floors you i think

No he does not end up on the floor with a zone parry nor can you gb him. The catapults last once maybe twice per game, shins passive is for the remainders of the match. You are also comparing it to hands down the best tier 4, I noticed you conveniently left out the crappier ones. I'm still not saying he's over powered but the post before mine was just flat out wrong.

[TommyMacpherson]

I am not denying Shinboi needed a buff. It was the stamina rather than health that destroyed shinobi; in my opinion. Shinobi's stamina before buff was terrible. The health however should have remained at 90 while the stamina should have been buffed. The dodge and the lights still make shinobi deadly at 90 health.. And with the tweaked stamina as it is now; I could no doubt get the same takedowns/kills mentioned earlier in the thread. I think the buff was just slightly too much. The stamina just needed the changes. He could barely do anything pre buff. I wasn't even rep one with shinobi before the buff.. despite the massive disadvantage and I did ok... now that his health is over 90.. With the flips lights and all.. it just makes it a hell of a lot easier to use shinobi, which I think takes away from the character as a whole. I liked the high risk/reward scenario. Shinobi can play defensively but can also be just as aggressive especially when a players stamina is out.. because shinobi can move in and out of a players reach without an issue. Stamina buff I agree on. Health should be 90. Also really sorry to say.. a lot of players rely on the kicks and grabs too much. I see a lot of shinobi players just go straight for kicks... And that is great and all; but it is predictable. Doesn't warrant this unnecessary health buff. And actually just mentioned earlier.. the aggressive playstyle on shinobi.. I actually don't see a lot of.. I see a lot of defensive play.. grabs at a distance.. as far as getting ganked or teamed.. not a lot of players actually have much of a chance if getting ganked anyway.. not that being ganked is a problem.. (the sprint that can be used on shinobi).. but yeah my opinion 😁