Poll: How should Parry and GB be changed? | Forums

[PDXGorechild]

I'm sure changes are on the way, and I imagine at this stage that whatever is being said on the forums about the matter will make no difference, but i'm getting impatient and wanted to see what you lot think.

Parry and Guard break are the two main components of the "Defensive Meta" play style. That is, that they both guarantee a heavy attack when pulled off with no fear of consequence. This means that in duels or tournaments especially, a fighting game with a dazzling array of attacks and combo's is essentially reduced to Parry > guard break > heavy > feint > guard break > heavy > Parry > heavy > etc.

I've always felt like it seizes the game up and makes it boring. I've played opponents who have been able to repeat this cycle on me expertly, never taking the risk to throw an attack, killing me entirely with heavy attacks that were guaranteed to land. Whilst I enjoy the flavour these mechanics give to the game, I don't like feeling out of control of my character in a fighting game, and I suspect most players will agree with me.

So here's a list of options i've compiled - let's see which is the most popular.

EDIT: If you're confused at the terminology, Guaranteed attacks are ones that cannot be defended against, no matter how fast you react, your character will not react in time. These changes are assuming the other aspects of each mechanic remain the same, that is, Parry drains stamina and staggers and GB allows people to be thrown off cliffs/into walls. Wallsplat still works.

[S0Mi_xD]

Other:

Parry:
- No Heavy, Light or GB
- every Hero should have a parry punish move (Shinobi, Warlord, Gladiator, Centurion already have one, maybe i forgot someone)
- it should be a move that fits the heroes move set
- I think parry should cost stamina, to reduce the abuse of it.
- Parry in OOS would be still possible, but it takes away a huge part of the regeneration -> it takes longer to recover from OOS, but therefor you are abit safer

We already saw, that a guaranteed light attack after a parry is pretty much unbalanced across the rooster.
Some heroes get double lights, or have their own parry punish move, while others get a light attack and maybe a zone (which is stronger than a light with most heroes, but consumes a huge amount of stamina).
That's why i think the best way would be a hero specific move that works in favor of the hero, but overall isn't to strong

GB
I feel like GB rewards are in a good place, especially after parry doesn't guarantee a Gb anymore - they are not that easy to get.
also a " only light reward" on GBs would cause the same imbalance between the heroes, like a light reward after parry.

Blocking
Blocking would still remain a turtle fact, especially if Chip doesn't kill and HP do regen up to 25.

- if chip would kill, this would imbalance blocking in 4v4 very much (so i don't think this is an option)
- HP regen on the last bar is an 1v1 only problem, in 4v4 it feels very important to stay

The game is made around 4v4 modes, both those problems are 1v1 problems, which is a "bonus" in the game, both problems are depending on each other, and are important in 4v4.
That's why i thought, that it needs a new mechanic to balance it out.

Here is the idea:
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...al-Guard-Break

I know, we could give every hero an unblockable or melee attack, but i think those attacks need to be toned down on some heroes. Unless you want this game to be an unblockable spamfest

This idea i come up with would work hand in hand with different mechanics:
- it would give a chance for a GB
- it would give parry the defensive purpose, if they would take away all safe dmg from it (because we saw in the PTS 2 that player rather take the chip and block instead of going for a "more risky parry"
- it would balance out the GB on dodge for all classes (especially in favor of higher dodge recovery)
- it would bring a different dynamic into the game

But i don't believe that such a huge change would every come in for Honor ^^ - still those are my 2 Cents (2 more for a Cent squad)

[PDXGorechild]

I feel that if every class had it's own unique punish for Parry, it will open the game up to more exploitation. Some punishes are bound to come up better than others, and the punishes that translate to raw damage could continue to be abused just as Parry > Free heavy is abused now.
I honestly feel that Parry, even if it didn't have any guaranteed follow up attacks, could still be a very viable tool for those with the skill to use it. If you're skilled enough to consistently pull off Parry's, it's favourable to use it over blocking as it drains the enemies stamina and means you don't take any chip damage. It also has the added possibility to stagger an enemy into a wall (for a justified, situational free heavy), off a ledge, or into one of the enemies team mates. It also gives you the initiative for the next attack, making it a bit harder for your opponent to react in time. In my mind this is reward enough for something that is essentially only a shade more difficult to do than blocking.

Having a guaranteed Light attack for GB makes sense to me. Light attacks have a pretty high chance to land anyway, I land many more of them than I do successful guard breaks. So granting a free light once in guard break would allow players to get a combo started, or they can opt to throw their opponent off a cliff, into a trap or into a wall for a free top heavy.

Somi your idea for GB being like soul calibers' is unique and interesting, but I fear it may be too much of an overhaul to implement it in 4h

[S0Mi_xD]

I feel that if every class had it's own unique punish for Parry, it will open the game up to more exploitation. Some punishes are bound to come up better than others, and the punishes that translate to raw damage could continue to be abused just as Parry > Free heavy is abused now.

That's why i think parry should cost stamina as well, to reduce the abuse of it - even if parry would give no free dmg at all.

The parry punish for every hero, would be more even out the dmg output of a parry for all classes, but it would still leave the option to just turtle with the small dmg . . .

I honestly feel that Parry, even if it didn't have any guaranteed follow up attacks, could still be a very viable tool for those with the skill to use it. If you're skilled enough to consistently pull off Parry's, it's favourable to use it over blocking as it drains the enemies stamina and means you don't take any chip damage. It also has the added possibility to stagger an enemy into a wall (for a justified, situational free heavy), off a ledge, or into one of the enemies team mates. It also gives you the initiative for the next attack, making it a bit harder for your opponent to react in time. In my mind this is reward enough for something that is essentially only a shade more difficult to do than blocking.

I have been a fan of the idea, that parry doesn't give any free dmg from the beginning - but you know to achive that, they would also need to take away the parry punish of those classes that already have one.
On the other side, a huge part of the community will be pissed really hard - and you know what ignorant people we have >.>

Parry would be great as an only defensive tool.
- no free dmg, no parry punish etc.
- only stamina dmg and the short stagger to turn the the wind of the fight
- and a stamina cost for parries would limit the amount of use

But i don't believe that they would make it this way - even if the only "hard" part is to remove the parry counters of the movesets of those 4 heros.

Another idea i had loong ago, is to make parry similar to lawbringers shove.
- you can't block or parry a parry follow up light attack, only dodge it

[S0Mi_xD]

Having a guaranteed Light attack for GB makes sense to me. Light attacks have a pretty high chance to land anyway, I land many more of them than I do successful guard breaks. So granting a free light once in guard break would allow players to get a combo started, or they can opt to throw their opponent off a cliff, into a trap or into a wall for a free top heavy.

But only a light of a Gb would be in favor of heroes with double lights ^^ and you would lose the overall "killing blow" on the last 25 hp bar.

Somi your idea for GB being like soul calibers' is unique and interesting, but I fear it may be too much of an overhaul to implement it in 4h

I know - just let me dream xDD ;P

[Netcode_err_404]

The game is built around parries and GB, you cannot change these 2 aspects without making it broken in another aspects.


Without free Gb after parry dominion is unplayable, it takes ages to kill just one dude, and ganking becomes even more powerfull.


If you make parries not granting a light or a GB, they would become useless, and the game would become a r1 spam fest ( even more than now).

If you make parries not granting a GB, GB would become useless, because its almost impossible landing one inneutral occasions.



The game is "unique" and theconsequence is that it is broken, and bad designed in the first place.


At this point im not expecting anything, but im still curios about 8 months of "collecting data" what will look like at the end.

[PDXGorechild]

But only a light of a Gb would be in favor of heroes with double lights ^^ and you would lose the overall "killing blow" on the last 25 hp bar.

I know - just let me dream xDD ;P

OK, so classes like Orochi will benefit a bit more from a GB with their high damage, double top light. I don't think it would be hugely imbalanced but I can see it being abused. Orochi's in Tournaments spamming GB > Top light only could be prolific. I don't know the answer to this, other than reworking the classes with the double lights or making it so GB gives no free attacks at all, unless you throw your opponent into a wall, then you get a top heavy. These keeps it situational and if you get spammed by it repeatedly you only really have yourself to blame for standing next to walls all the time.

I guess the latter of those two options is preferable and requires less work to implement.

Parry would be great as an only defensive tool.
- no free dmg, no parry punish etc.
- only stamina dmg and the short stagger to turn the the wind of the fight
- and a stamina cost for parries would limit the amount of use.

This is what I'd like to see.

The game is built around parries and GB, you cannot change these 2 aspects without making it broken in another aspects.


Without free Gb after parry dominion is unplayable, it takes ages to kill just one dude, and ganking becomes even more powerfull.


If you make parries not granting a light or a GB, they would become useless, and the game would become a r1 spam fest ( even more than now).

If you make parries not granting a GB, GB would become useless, because its almost impossible landing one inneutral occasions.



The game is "unique" and theconsequence is that it is broken, and bad designed in the first place.


At this point im not expecting anything, but im still curios about 8 months of "collecting data" what will look like at the end.

I can't help but feel most of your posts are overly negative, Error0004000025;12980985. I can't agree with you that the whole game is built around parries and GB. These mechanics are only usually abused in 1v1 scenarios. Saying dominion is unplayable without a parry punish is a very extreme point of view. I've played plenty of a great dominion games where players haven't abused parry punish.

GB would not be useless if it still allowed you to throw people off or into things and to mess up peoples flow. It would be used much less, yes, but I see that as a good thing.

Yes the game is unique, and Ubi have a long road ahead in refining it into a more balanced game. But that's what you get when you have a highly dynamic PvP game with 16+ classes running around in an open environment.

[Netcode_err_404]

OK, so classes like Orochi will benefit a bit more from a GB with their high damage, double top light. I don't think it would be hugely imbalanced but I can see it being abused. Orochi's in Tournaments spamming GB > Top light only could be prolific. I don't know the answer to this, other than reworking the classes with the double lights or making it so GB gives no free attacks at all, unless you throw your opponent into a wall, then you get a top heavy. These keeps it situational and if you get spammed by it repeatedly you only really have yourself to blame for standing next to walls all the time.

I guess the latter of those two options is preferable and requires less work to implement.



This is what I'd like to see.



I can't help but feel most of your posts are overly negative, Error0004000025;12980985. I can't agree with you that the whole game is built around parries and GB. These mechanics are only usually abused in 1v1 scenarios. Saying dominion is unplayable without a parry punish is a very extreme point of view. I've played plenty of a great dominion games where players haven't abused parry punish.

GB would not be useless if it still allowed you to throw people off or into things and to mess up peoples flow. It would be used much less, yes, but I see that as a good thing.

Yes the game is unique, and Ubi have a long road ahead in refining it into a more balanced game. But that's what you get when you have a highly dynamic PvP game with 16+ classes running around in an open environment.

Parry is not something you can abuse, unless you are playing extremely predictable, which is your only fault.

Killing fast one guy with a parry is mandatory in dominion when 1 or more ppl are running towards you. I've played in ptr, and dominion without parries and gb, is unplayable. Everyone go pk or rorchi, spam the hell out of them, without even worrying about consequences, because there were none. A simple 17 damage light with the low risk involved in spamming pk and orochi zones..


Not to mention that you cannot survive any 1vX because revenge is not powerfull enough to make you stand a chance if you cannot punish ppl with parries. So gank squad would be even more deadly and even 1v2 would be impossible to sustain.


Also, there is a diference between negative, and realist. For the actual state of the game theres very little to be positive about. I've seen early access more stable and less bugged than FH, from indie studios.

[S0Mi_xD]

Parry is not something you can abuse, unless you are playing extremely predictable, which is your only fault.

Killing fast one guy with a parry is mandatory in dominion when 1 or more ppl are running towards you. I've played in ptr, and dominion without parries and gb, is unplayable. Everyone go pk or rorchi, spam the hell out of them, without even worrying about consequences, because there were none. A simple 17 damage light with the low risk involved in spamming pk and orochi zones..


Not to mention that you cannot survive any 1vX because revenge is not powerfull enough to make you stand a chance if you cannot punish ppl with parries. So gank squad would be even more deadly and even 1v2 would be impossible to sustain.


Also, there is a diference between negative, and realist. For the actual state of the game theres very little to be positive about. I've seen early access more stable and less bugged than FH, from indie studios.

You and a realist? Gore pinned you down pretty well with the pessimistic attitude, like centurion an enemy after a wallsplatt.

But aside this - it always sounds like "i am the one and only chosen who played the ptr - i know what i am talking about"
Also, your opinion about the consol version is really in a wrong - you are saying it is trash, just because of the fps difference, that doesn't even makes it so much different.
Just a PC average player who feels superior to consol players, but can't handle dominon without GBs and parries that give free dmg.

If you would think realistic,
- you would realise that in a 1vX situation you won't really have the chance to hit this free dmg from a parry anyways
- Parry in revenge knocks down enemies, so it is and will be usefull anyways if you find youself in 1vX situations
- If parry gives no rewards, people will block more -> chip dmg
- but parries help to trigger revenge earlier
- i don't exactly get what is wrong with "light spam" especially with orochi and pk, they do it currently as well, light spammers are easy to predict, block one light attack in a gank and you will block most others as well

At least we try to think in a constructive way - not like you trash talking everything - even if def meta changes will come and the kensei buff, you won't be satisfied anyways.

That's a lost case.

[PDXGorechild]

Parry is not something you can abuse, unless you are playing extremely predictable, which is your only fault.

Killing fast one guy with a parry is mandatory in dominion when 1 or more ppl are running towards you. I've played in ptr, and dominion without parries and gb, is unplayable. Everyone go pk or rorchi, spam the hell out of them, without even worrying about consequences, because there were none. A simple 17 damage light with the low risk involved in spamming pk and orochi zones..


Not to mention that you cannot survive any 1vX because revenge is not powerfull enough to make you stand a chance if you cannot punish ppl with parries. So gank squad would be even more deadly and even 1v2 would be impossible to sustain.


Also, there is a diference between negative, and realist. For the actual state of the game theres very little to be positive about. I've seen early access more stable and less bugged than FH, from indie studios.

By abusing Parry I mean some players will only attack after a parry or GB, i.e turtle meta fiends. As said before this is mainly a problem in 1v1 scenarios, with the tournament mode being the worst. It forces the match into a state where heavy attacks are never thrown for fear of punishment, light attacks are spammed, feinting becomes almost mandatory and cheesy tactics become rife because it simply isn't safe to play your class how you would normally. Perhaps other classes don't experience this as much, but as a Berserker main it makes high level 1v1 so boring for me that i've stopped playing it altogether.

I still can't see how killing one enemy fast with a parry is a staple or applicable to most scenarios in dominion unless you're playing Centurion, which is a bullsh*t class from the ground up and needs to be removed ideally anyway. Contrary to your argument, I find it is ME being parried or guard broken in 1vX scenarios that results in the most ganking. Having that second or two of vulnerability against several players if one of them parries me is usually a death sentence, especially as an Assassin. If I manage to avoid being parried or guard broken I often do pretty well in 1vX whilst using neither of those mechanics myself. I simply use dodging around and positioning myself so I never get caught in the middle of multiple enemies, chaining attacks between opponents, using the odd GB > Throw into another enemy, etc.

What platform are you on? I very rarely see bugs day to day playing on PS4. The only noticeable issue is the disconnects, which have been getting gradually better... think i've had a couple in the last week.