Warlord vs. Centurion parry punish hypocrisy... | Forums

[Cor...]

Latest patch note regarding Warlord's shield counter:

Developer Comments: Even at full stamina getting parried into Shield Counter when attacking with a Heavy results in Out of Stamina state. It was too big of a punishment in this case. We reduced the stamina drain but added a 1.8 second regeneration cooldown like most of the stamina draining moves. We think Counter Slash didn’t bring anything more than free damage in some situation and nothing in the others. We think that being able to continue with a Heavy attack that can be chained or feinted will create more interesting opportunities.

So if the devs think that 1 parry into out of stamina is too strong and that Counter Slash was just free damage depending on their attack side, then why does Centurion still get a free heavy (regardless of side) after this parry riposte which leads into a guaranteed normal jab which means you are now in an out of stamina state which chains into either another light attack or even worse, a wall splat which is either another heavy or if the distance is perfect, a charged heavy into a eagle's talon.

So Warlord had 25 (now 30 but not available for parry punish anymore) damage for a parry riposte if it came from the top or right side. He got a light attack finisher if you parry riposted an attack from the left side (or gb into top heavy for 30 if you didnt). His out of stamina game is pretty weak as headbutt doesn't stop stamina regeneration so you can probably get like 3-4 headbutts before their stam comes back (if they dont dodge the headbutt) or try to play the 50/50 game and try to get a dodge out of them. His charge in sprint mode is useless atm because you literally just slide off you opponent. Literally slide off them. Please fix this

Now however, I can only get the light attack finisher or i can still zone them if they didnt attack from the left side (so still 25 damage but 50% of my stamina) or i can gb into top heavy which is again 25 damage. Otherwise I can feint a heavy and waste stamina coz no one is gonna actually fall for it... Looking ahead though, if gb isn't guarenteed from a parry with the defensive meta fix patch, i am down to just the zone/light attack. Headbutt is now so much slower that the 50/50 doesnt exist anymore and it still doesnt stop stamina regeneration.

Centurion however still gets 25 + 12 (could be 15 idk) at a minimum so 37 which is already more than the Warlord got, but with the wall behind he can get 50 at a minimum (2x heavy) or 90 at a maximum (25+30 (charged heavy) + 35 (eagle's talon)). If you fail to dodge a kick while out of stamina, you lose around 1/3 of your stamina and have your stamina stop regenerating for 1.8 secs.

I find it ridiculous that the devs can make a comment like that but then not nerf the centurion parry punish in the same patch when it is so much stronger..... I know this was supposed to be nerf Warlord patch but come on......

[Knight_Raime]

A few things:

1) Just because they took this pass at warlord doesn't mean centurion won't receive one. The community has a long standing distaste towards warlord. And has been considered the best since launch even after centurion dropped. He's almost always winning tournaments as well. I believe these changes were long time in the works ones that the devs finally felt good enough to post. Don't assume they are not doing the same to centurion at the moment.

2) Sorry but that is false. The jab is never guaranteed after an uncharged heavy. When you parry counter someone yes the uncharged heavy is free. But nothing you do after that is. Jab only ever i confirmed when you splat someone or if you pin them with a charged heavy. No other time regardless of guard type or match up.

[Cor...]

From my testing/experience, if a heavy lands (not blocked) i have never been able to dodge the jab. If you block it, you can dodge it. Same when i played as a centurion, never had my jab dodged when i connected with heavy. So i just assumed that was the case.

[Knight_Raime]

From my testing/experience, if a heavy lands (not blocked) i have never been able to dodge the jab. If you block it, you can dodge it. Same when i played as a centurion, never had my jab dodged when i connected with heavy. So i just assumed that was the case.

nah the timing is a bit tight. But it's doable. If people are not dodging it when fighting you they either are not aware that they can or latency is messing with them. All I know is I was able to reproduce dodging out of it both when I was the centurion and my partner was not and vise versa against both normal guard and reflex guard.

[kweassa1]

The very clear impression I got fro Warlord nerfs was that he was a testbed for other classes with similar skills that also received complaints.

My bet's on that if the changed shield counter combo nerf and headbutt nerf works out to their liking, it's gonna be applied in the exact same manner with the special parry skills such as the Cent's parry counter, as well as forward-dash MA skills such as Cent legion kick, Conq shield bash, and probably Gladiator shield punching and stuff.


So please, for Pete's sake, have some patience.

[kweassa1]

nah the timing is a bit tight. But it's doable. If people are not dodging it when fighting you they either are not aware that they can or latency is messing with them. All I know is I was able to reproduce dodging out of it both when I was the centurion and my partner was not and vise versa against both normal guard and reflex guard.

Raime, the jab is guaranteed.

Jab command input timing is very lenient and sometimes people simply input the command a little bit late, which is when it becomes dodgeable, but at a "just" timing, the heavy-jab is itself a single chain combo and you can see the jab heading for the target's chin even before the target fully regains neutral posture, while still in recovery time from the initial stagger from the heavy.

The best way I can describe this is... do you remember the parry-parry counter-legion kick combo?

In that combo, a single press of GB button activates a legion kick when its done at the exact timing the kneed from parry counter lands on the target. When the GB timing is too early or too late, it doesn't activate.

The heavy-jab is sorta like that, but it's more lenient, so the jab will always activate. But te difference is, roughly upto the similar timing of the legion kick in the former said combo, the jab activated will be initiated as a single-chain combo and always lands before the opponent regains control. When the timing is little bit later than that, the legion kick does not activate for the former, but the jab does activate for the latter -- but not guaranteed.

You can do a continuous testing of this against lv3 BOTs that practically dodge/parry everything mechanically possible. Do a heavy-jab at the correct timing and they can't evade any of it. Do it a slightly little bit later, and they dodge it perfectly.

[Knight_Raime]

Raime, the jab is guaranteed.

Jab command input timing is very lenient and sometimes people simply input the command a little bit late, which is when it becomes dodgeable, but at a "just" timing, the heavy-jab is itself a single chain combo and you can see the jab heading for the target's chin even before the target fully regains neutral posture, while still in recovery time from the initial stagger from the heavy.

The best way I can describe this is... do you remember the parry-parry counter-legion kick combo?

In that combo, a single press of GB button activates a legion kick when its done at the exact timing the kneed from parry counter lands on the target. When the GB timing is too early or too late, it doesn't activate.

The heavy-jab is sorta like that, but it's more lenient, so the jab will always activate. But te difference is, roughly upto the similar timing of the legion kick in the former said combo, the jab activated will be initiated as a single-chain combo and always lands before the opponent regains control. When the timing is little bit later than that, the legion kick does not activate for the former, but the jab does activate for the latter -- but not guaranteed.

You can do a continuous testing of this against lv3 BOTs that practically dodge/parry everything mechanically possible. Do a heavy-jab at the correct timing and they can't evade any of it. Do it a slightly little bit later, and they dodge it perfectly.

No I don't remember seeing a video like that.

And no it's not guaranteed.
Bots are your best evidence?
Dude bots don't parry your un blockable heavy after a kick/toss from the highlander even though it's possible.
Bots do not parry crushing counter even though it's possible.
I can trick a bot into eating a caber toss by canceling into it from a kick. Yet the same exact timing against a normal player and they dodge.
Bots are also known for ignoring frames when they get parried.

Bots are not a reliable way to test confirmable combos or damage. I already humored you when we were talking about things after the PTR 2 in private messages. But i'll go test again with my friend.

EDIT: Leaving what I originally posted just so people don't think i'm covering up my mistakes.

ANYWAY apologies for the snap. Had a long day today. Well I went back and tested a few things.

Jab is not confirmed after the first heavy that lands regardless of the guard type.
Jab is not confirmed after whiffing the first heavy but landing the second heavy.
Jab is confirmed if you land 2 heavies in a row. So his heavy heavy combo. regardless of guard type.
Jab is confirmed if you parry counter and uncharged heavy into jab regardless of guard type.
Jab is not confirmed if you parry counter into uncharged heavy and the person is splat against a surface at any point in the combo.

These results were all using the uncharged jab and uncharged heavy. I can only assume that the reason it wasn't landing in my prior tests is either because A) I was wall splatting with the parry counter. or B) time snap removal.

I'm going to say it was scenario B because wall splatting someone is kind of a big deal in testing and I don't believe i'd mess that up. We do also know that time snap removal has removed the ability for pk to soft feint from heavy into guard break mid combo. So it's not entirely farfetched that due to the removal and things being faster now you can't dodge it. Because both me and my friend are clearly in dodge animation during both instances where jab was guaranteed.

Regardless of wether it was always this way or not I've already advocated nerfing parry counters stamina damage and changing that confirmed heavy into a confirmed light that is the second light in his light>light>heavy combo. So hopefully something is done about it.

[brashtralas]

This is entertaining.

As to the original post, the key problem here is that removing the centurions parry punish and annoying cinematic combos essentially neuters him, because he actually is weak without them.

I want the cinematic crap to go away and quit taking control away from the player, but I'm under no illusion about how weak the centurions actual attacks and normal chains are. He's actually cinematic to his own detriment.

On the contrary, the warlord will still be a powerhouse.

[kweassa1]

No I don't remember seeing a video like that.

And no it's not guaranteed.
Bots are your best evidence?
Dude bots don't parry your un blockable heavy after a kick/toss from the highlander even though it's possible.
Bots do not parry crushing counter even though it's possible.
I can trick a bot into eating a caber toss by canceling into it from a kick. Yet the same exact timing against a normal player and they dodge.
Bots are also known for ignoring frames when they get parried.

Contrary to what you may think, BOT reactions are the first line of testing that has a certain amount of credibility behind it due to the fact that:

- there are no latency, "timesnap" issues
- there are no human error issues
- in regards to programmed/scripted response BOTs always succeed in certain actions with 100% accuracy

Like you said, certain limitations in AI algorithm make it undesirable to use BOTs as testbed for complex tactics, but at the same tine their mechanical nature makes them excellent testbeds for testing out mechanical stuff. Usually when there are certain skills in the game people find difficult to counter, or don't know the way, do it on a BOT and they do it.

As a matter of fact, the whole "people can sometimes parry HL's cabertoss - UB heavy combo" fiasco was first discovered through BOT testings. People practiced it in BOT fights, and then some of them noticed that in some cases BOTs were parrying the UB heavy after they've been thrown down and no, there is no sync/timesnap issue when the whole thing is happening on your PC, not against someone that maybe hundreds of miles away.


In regards to "BOTS do impossible things" argument, I've seen a lot of people say that, but never have I seen anyone actually provide proof of it.

Jab is not confirmed after the first heavy that lands regardless of the guard type.
Jab is not confirmed after whiffing the first heavy but landing the second heavy.
Jab is confirmed if you land 2 heavies in a row. So his heavy heavy combo. regardless of guard type.
Jab is confirmed if you parry counter and uncharged heavy into jab regardless of guard type.
Jab is not confirmed if you parry counter into uncharged heavy and the person is splat against a surface at any point in the combo.

I respect for your testings, but notice how none of the above factors mention when the jab command was input. It addresses which attacks you have tried, but it doesn't address "at which timing did I press the GB button" -- and needless to say, we all know that input can be delayed.

I know that in some cases jabs are dodgeable. It's not something I don't know. I notice this when the opponent cent usually is a "careful" type, making efforts to visually confirm first that his heavy hit the mark and was not blocked. Most usually, the cent player presses the GB button after he sees his heavy hit, in which case very often the jab input becomes delayed. Even if it wasn't charged and was simply a single tap of the GB button, there's a delay between the heavy and the jab in these cases. These are dodged often.

It is when the heavy-jab is used in what I call a "single-chain". No delays at all between the heavy and jab input, and pressing the GB button at the earliest possible timing. My contention is that in this "correct" timing, the jab hits the mark before the opponent recovers from the stagger.


I know you said you distrust the BOTs, but when BOTs show a collective tendency of action in one case, and then shows a totally different tendency in the other -- logically that should mean whatever conditions changed in between the two different cases is behind the different results.

And I've tested this out extensively as well, against lv3 BOTs.

In like 99.9% of the cases, if the jab input is a little bit late, the BOTs all dodge and evade the jab perfectly. Even the "slowest" dodging classes. Change ONE variable in that testing, and input the heavy-jab command in a 'chain' without any delay between them, 0% of the BOTs succeed in evading. Those are the results I'm familiar with.

[Knight_Raime]

Contrary to what you may think, BOT reactions are the first line of testing that has a certain amount of credibility behind it due to the fact that:

- there are no latency, "timesnap" issues
- there are no human error issues
- in regards to programmed/scripted response BOTs always succeed in certain actions with 100% accuracy

Like you said, certain limitations in AI algorithm make it undesirable to use BOTs as testbed for complex tactics, but at the same tine their mechanical nature makes them excellent testbeds for testing out mechanical stuff. Usually when there are certain skills in the game people find difficult to counter, or don't know the way, do it on a BOT and they do it.

As a matter of fact, the whole "people can sometimes parry HL's cabertoss - UB heavy combo" fiasco was first discovered through BOT testings. People practiced it in BOT fights, and then some of them noticed that in some cases BOTs were parrying the UB heavy after they've been thrown down and no, there is no sync/timesnap issue when the whole thing is happening on your PC, not against someone that maybe hundreds of miles away.


In regards to "BOTS do impossible things" argument, I've seen a lot of people say that, but never have I seen anyone actually provide proof of it.





I respect for your testings, but notice how none of the above factors mention when the jab command was input. It addresses which attacks you have tried, but it doesn't address "at which timing did I press the GB button" -- and needless to say, we all know that input can be delayed.

I know that in some cases jabs are dodgeable. It's not something I don't know. I notice this when the opponent cent usually is a "careful" type, making efforts to visually confirm first that his heavy hit the mark and was not blocked. Most usually, the cent player presses the GB button after he sees his heavy hit, in which case very often the jab input becomes delayed. Even if it wasn't charged and was simply a single tap of the GB button, there's a delay between the heavy and the jab in these cases. These are dodged often.

It is when the heavy-jab is used in what I call a "single-chain". No delays at all between the heavy and jab input, and pressing the GB button at the earliest possible timing. My contention is that in this "correct" timing, the jab hits the mark before the opponent recovers from the stagger.


I know you said you distrust the BOTs, but when BOTs show a collective tendency of action in one case, and then shows a totally different tendency in the other -- logically that should mean whatever conditions changed in between the two different cases is behind the different results.

And I've tested this out extensively as well, against lv3 BOTs.

In like 99.9% of the cases, if the jab input is a little bit late, the BOTs all dodge and evade the jab perfectly. Even the "slowest" dodging classes. Change ONE variable in that testing, and input the heavy-jab command in a 'chain' without any delay between them, 0% of the BOTs succeed in evading. Those are the results I'm familiar with.

I understand the usefulness of bots to an extent. But due to their inconsistency in behaviors I don't consider them the end all be all for deciding anything.
Like if they can parry the UB heavy after a kick/toss they should be able to do it everytime. It makes no sense for them not to. I'll have to take your word on that on it being discovered by bots. I've personally never had a bot parry it in the hours that i've spent practicing against level 3 bots.
In regards to impossible things it's one of 2 things. they either tech a GB they shouldn't be able to from being parried. OR they parry something they shouldn't have been able to after you parried them. I myself can attempt to try and record it the next time I have it happen. But I doubt I need to. I'm sure a clip is floating around somewhere of it. Why else would the saying catch on?

With the jab not being confirmed after you land a heavy I tried every possible input I could do. I tried the moment I hear the audio que of the hit landing. I've tried tapping it right after releasing the heavy. I tried hitting it as soon as I possibly could when I knew it was a confirmed hit. I tried delaying it to a varying degree. No matter what timing I tried here it was never guaranteed.

All other things I only tested one timing which was as soon as I could. Now I wouldn't say I have the fastest reactions out there. But i'd say they are pretty damn good. So either you have god like reflexes or the bots are simply stupid. Regardless even if there IS a specific timing in which to make the jab guaranteed it's so specific and so tight that it's not practical for most of the player base to even attempt.
It sounds like you're telling me that you are hitting the input for the jab before the hit has even landed. I tried that. the jab never comes out.

From my testing we can see that the speed of the heavy doesn't matter. Because both the first heavy and second heavy in the "heavy heavy" chain have differing speeds.
The heavy that you get after a parry counter is considered by the game as the first heavy. Not a combo ender. And in my testing that very same heavy from neutral never gave a jab. Which doesn't add up. I also tested the second heavy. whiffing the first to get the second didn't give a jab. But 2 landed heavies did.

It is my conclusion from my testing results that The only reason the jab is ever confirmed is because the person's stun animation is extended by another stun. In the parry counter case the knee is the first stun and the heavy after is a second stun. The first heavy in the heavy heavy combo is the first stun and the second heavy is the second stun. That seems pretty consistent to me.
Being able to escape this if you've been splatted is easily explainable as well. the wall splat stun is a different animation. It over rides the stun animation currently playing. And thus gives you the opportunity to escape this specific combo.

To wrap up. I tried variable timings. Could only ever confirm jab off of parry counter and 2 heavy hits. Never from neutral off of a single hit. Regardless of wether or not my timing is "off" the reality of the situation is this. Either the timing is too tight for the average player base to use and thus it doesn't matter if it's confirmable. OR this is just one of those things bots are simply stupid against. Like never parrying a crushing counter. And that if people are being nailed by the jab in areas where I said it wasn't confirmed it's FAR more likely that there is a latency issue or skill issue.

We all know time snap removal caused attacks to be sped up. I'm more willing to bet that is the cause of your supposed confirmed situation than accept that after an hour of testing back and forth between me dodging and my partner dodging that some how there was a magical timing that I missed. It makes me sound stubborn. But at this point arguing over this is annoying. I've parried crushing counters. I've parried pk zones. I literally can't do this timing that you claim exists. So to me it doesn't really matter if this is an actual confirmable combo. There is no way it's being used by a majority of centurion players.