Junior Member
Okay. First off. Im P42 with not a single character under P1. Just saying, i play ALL of them just mostly because my ADHD tells me to. Yes i play ALOT of 4vAI mostly becaue im pretty sure ive yet to actually complete and get rewarded for a single 4v4 match since day 1. Just sayin.
So i tried this new tournament thing and wow, i must say playing vs people now is a whole new game and i also must say, i have more fun vs bots.
There is no actual combat in this game at all. None. Might as well be watching WoW PvP with everyone blasting off macro'd attack/spell sequences. Whomeever hits first wins. People are doing a very specific set of moves that to me, seem almost like a cheat since they can accomplish this "meta chain" faster than doing any of the characters actual "chain" moves that come pre-set with each character. i mean ther is no thought really, no strategy other than to get that fist hit and then poof, yer dead.
The first mistake is usually the only one you get. somehow certain characters can perform these multi-move "meta-chains" involving 4, 5 and sometimes 6 moves in a row and are able to accomplish them faster than a 3x lb combo. seems rediculous. Many of these moves themselves need to be addressed but that is discussed a little later. Overall though it seems to me, pretty lame for what the game potentially could offer.
These new buffs on the new characters seem way too powerful in thier current state. Im talking about mostly the stamina drains. HUGE game changer but allowing something like that into the game as a set of actual moves. People though PK and Nob poison was bad but it was nothing compared to this farce.
To do an opening move with PK, Dodge forward + heavy, get dodged and then kicked by Shinobi, and somehow im at 0 stamina already. Horse ****. Centurion gets 3 special spam moves in and same thing but im also on my ***... YET were i to dodge 4 or 5 of those special spam attacks, im i STILL have less stamina than the attacker who missed every attack 5 times? NO Risk at all. Lawbringer instant qattacks after a shove, which they seem to do pretty much at will.... lets get real for just a couple moments and admit that there is really no way on this earth could a human duplicate what a lawbringer can do with an 8 foot pole arm with probably a 15lb blade on the end of it. Just sayin. I know its a game but comeone. Shouldbt be able to have that much speed coupled with that much damage. That crazy move by the highlander that makes wierd noises when you do it.. seems more like a glitch move to me.. since there seems to be at least 2 if not 3 arrows flashing when they do it. The double overhead uninteruptable i think is broken as well cus i have parried the first one numerous times and still get hit by the second one. i understand its a cool move and all and looks awesome but there seems to be no punishment for these new classes. If i parry that first overhead chop... that should stop the second one. Instantly. No questions asked.
2 suggestions are.. everyone needs to get a spammable stamina move implemented in thier repitoire ( not likely ) or there needs to be more COST to do these moves. More of a nerf cost when they miss these moves as these are powerful moves that drain stamina AND hp. Shouldnt be able to spam these moves like a PK can spam lights.
Free moves need to be nerfed. Especially GBs and Heavies. A match shouldnt be won on garbage moves that really take no skill to execute. I would probably feel different if the Centurion for example, had an actual hard to time sequence of buttons to get off his 100-0 combo-meta-chain, but he doesnt. Its 4 or 5 moves that for the most part, require only 1 button to be pressed or held and little to no actual timing needed.Seriously what the hell.
Dodge back needs a buff. Seriously. Or make forward tracking hits not track as far. Im seeing some people doing moves from like 10-12 feet away, right after i dodge back and wham, somehow im getting hit. The GBs are the worst. If i start to swing a Heavy or light hit before a GB, the GB is cancelled. If i dodge back or to the side BEFORE a GB is initiated, the GB needs to miss and leave one at a slight disadvantage. There seems to be no advantage to being defensive except a parry and even then, as ive pointed out, these new characters especially but overall, it seems the attackers are still better off than the defender is after the defender makes a successful defensive move.
I have watched myself countless times dodge left or right only to be instantly GB yet IM the one supposed to have a slight advantage because his attack failed and my defend didnt. That doesnt seem to be the case 90% of the time. This also affects the "power moves" so many characters have. The tracking system for them needs to be seperate.. ESPECIALLY for airmorn/jumping attacks. I dont care HOW bad i dodged left or right, if you left the ground heading in once direction, you should be landing in that same direction. and again, missing a power move should have some form of punishment in itself, ie more of a cost if you fail. implement a failing system for people trying to just spam powermoves such as LB shove, WL headbut, Cent everything etc. Some of these classes are so broke-op it isnt funny. At least for a class like Glad or Valk, they have to set up thier powermoves. Imagine of Glad or Valk could just skewer and sweep at a whim, spammed over and over? How is Centurion stamina drain moves any different?
Parry needs to stop all chains period and should put the defender at a better position than the attacker. ESPECIALLY in regards to power moves (that can be parried).i personally feel performing a parry against most attacks is harder than a dodge, maybe its just me but whatever. To me a parry means ive completely interupted your attack and put you at best, in a neutral position to me and at worst, as in after i parry a power move, you as the attacker should be at a definate disadvantage. Less so with lights and moreso with heavy attacks.
Defence needs to mean more than just a chance at surviving the exchange. Im not sure if they are the same, i doubt it but dodge and parry need to be as spamable as attacks are. meaning if you can spam 5 attacks in 2 seconds, i should be able to dodge and parry 5 attacks in 2 seconds. Defenders need to be able to, for lack of a better term, CHAIN defence together to compete with chained offence. They need to be nearer to even with each other.
Attacks AND defends need to drain stamina more, you would see ALOT less powercombos being spammed and more people actually trying to out think and out play/out maneuver thier opponent knowing that you are going to maybe get 1 or 2 heavies in or 3 lights before you yourself are running low on stamina.
This could be such an awesome combat game but basically its like playing CoD against a team of Quickscopers except that instead of guns, they have gladiuses. Id love to see more actualy combat, such as was before the 4 new classes than now where you are basically having to play perfectly in order to win a match against them yet other than mastering a fwe button combos, dont really take alot of skill to steamroll people.
Enough on that.
TOURNAMENTS
IMO as a player...
1: need to have arena style maps. Not narrow canyon passes, or cliff edges that are high enough to cause fatality. This is a tournament. Play it like a tournament. Even ground for all classes. Open faced arena with obstacles or low bridges. It should be a match about fighting, not about who can throw someone off a cliff from 20 ft away.
2: Opponents shouldnt be a mystery. Random generated selection as to who picks thier class last or higher seen in quarter/semi/finals.
OR
3: have different style tournaments
-OPEN--- like the original but can see opponents in selection screen and can change class to suit/match.
-CLOSED-- Pick a class and see how you do VS anyone. This is the mystery tournament. * make this mode the best rewards mode*
-CLASS-- Lets see who is really the best Warden, Orochi, Shugoki etc
and finally
-GROUP-- 3 types, Random- random classes in groups of 2s, 3s and 4s
Set Groups- teams of 2s,3s and 4s
and Faction -Sams vs Knights vs Viks
Same as above with OPEN, CLOSED and CLASS sub choices
Last but not Least...
the BATTLE ROYAL 4v4v4 random, set or faction
Love the game, HATE a few things about it that really strain the fun factor. Personally i think this game should have more emphasis on reactive and tactical melee combat and LESS about spaming a virtually undefendable chain of simple moves that few if any other classes can duplicate with any amount of similar success.
Ok, time for a smoke. Talk amongst yourselves.
Junior Member
Thank you. 'Good' to hear it's not getting better the higher your level is when playing without hacking tools so many are using out there without getting cought.
I personally felt refreshed about the combat system in general, because it's some Mount and blade thought further, but disappointed in how ppl making PVP unplayable again. And this happened in a lot of games the last years.
Some honest and especially bold critics like yours are badly missing here, as well as serious cheating punishments, so hopefully those critics get some attention one day. No seriously, I hope so, not kidding..
Member
Some thoughts on your thoughts:
1. There's no reason whatsoever to bring what a "real person" could do into this video game world. In this game you can survive a two-handed axe basically being golf swung into your side by a burly human. You've already suspended your disbelief whether you think you have or not, so you might as well suspend it a bit further because the game needs to be balanced.
2. Nobody really likes how punishing Centurion is.
3. Heavies are free? If anything, they are a free chance to be parried, which is risky in and of itself. GBs get blocked out by attack animations, so if someone is GB spamming, just go for lights/heavies. Don't blame the entire system for how the Centurion was implemented. Again, nobody seems to really like fighting them.
4. Dodge doesn't need a buff. Some heroes are more dodge oriented, some are more block oriented, and the dodge oriented assassins can already dodge quite far. The thing about GB on dodge is that it's designed to counter you dodging, so if you dodge backward and someone GBs in time, they really should follow you to get the grab, despite how it looks. If you dodge to the sides and are GB'd, then that's them countering your move. Otherwise assassins would just constantly dodge around with impunity. Some moves have tracking that might be too good, but that's on the move to be fixed, not the dodge system.
5. Parry does stop all chains, and it does put the defender at a better position. Even without GB you very likely get a free heavy on most classes. I have no idea what you're talking about in that section.
6. If you are surrounded, and you block one attack, you block every other blockable attack that comes in within a timeframe, regardless of direction. If you parry an attack, you parry every other attack automatically that comes in within a timeframe, regardless of direction. You probably can dodge about 5 times in 2 seconds, but if someone GBs you, again, you should be grabbed.
So, I'm not saying this as a negative, but it sounds like you enjoy bots because they play very casually and they let you immerse yourself more in the fantasy of having a medieval fight. Players, on the other hand, go for the kill, and they aren't going to use tools and attacks that leave themselves as completely exposed as a bot will. That's fine, but every single competitive game in the world renders down into winning strategies/tactics, and if you are going to play against people, you need to find the right ones to organize in-house matches with if you want to maintain that same sense of cinematic clashing.
Personally, I get a very cinematic sense of fluid and awesome medieval combat whenever I play, and I exclusively play against people. Certain systems could use some updates, and are seeing some updates in the future, but I don't see how they could reign in the competitive attitude of players.
Junior Member
Dodge does not need a buff.. dodge BACK does. And yes, GB isnt about grabbing a dodging person its about moving inside a persons guard for a tackle or throw. If im already moving then WTF?
GB need to be directional if you want them implemented in the style you are describing. An omnipotent 180 degree GB is a bit overpowered if, as i stated, ive already begun my dodge left or right to position myself say away from a cliff or lava or spikes. if you GB left while i dodge left.. you should miss. Period. A defensive move shouldnt equate to an offensive move when used against a defensive move unless of course it is a class specific move like Orochi or PK dodge but then you arent actually dodging then, you are trying to deflect an attack to counter.
I play bots because there are still way too many disconnects when playing PvP. Hell ive made it to quarterfinals 6 times without even fighting once in Tournaments. I prefer to play vs humans but i just dont have the tolerance or patience for emote spammers who used OP chains to win... usually Raider, Lawbringer, Centurion, the Highlander and the Shinobi. I used to love getting my *** handed to me by a Warlord, because you could at least mount some kind of defense or counter into offence. Centurion and Shinobi, Lawbringer and Raider use a very easy to execute maneuver than not only hurts you but stops you from really doing ANYthing else untill you are dead.. unless you were lucky to not make a tiny timing mistake on the first 3 attacks and still have stamina left.
Ive been playing this game since day1 and ive yet to see anyone mow through people like those 4 classes can. None of the other classes can kill someone trying to defend themselves that fast. that tells me there is a major imbalance there.
Also you contradicted yourself in point 3 and 5. You said there are no free heavies but then mentioned after a parry you get a free heavy. Just sayin.
Also, that is not really spamming defence. I should be able to in theory, dodge every attack from an opposing player if i time it correctly. I shouldnt, as a defender, have a LONGER cooldown before i can dodge again or parry again that the attacker whose attack i foiled.
The feint, while over used and abused as its the only way to beat high skilled players, why cant i defend the feint? Ya i bit for the original directional arrow, but if YOU as the attacker can switch in mid swing, why cant I as a defender accomplish the same if i time it right? FRom what ive seen, if you "took the bait" you get hurt. If you didnt you can parry the attack. That puts alot of power in the hands of the attacker and basically nerfs any defence? Why cant I " fake dodge" ? Also if i cant defend against that second attack, because of whatever reason the devs have decided, the second attack after the feint shouldnt, in theory, do as much damage as you didnt attack with your all? You stopped your momentum by switching the direction of your attack. If that is NOT the case, then i should have, as a defender, enough time to change my defend to match your feint no?
Im not saying your points are wrong and mine are right and thats all there is to it. Im saying there needs to really be a hard look at some of these "explosion" classes who seem to very easily, blow **** up and dont seem to have any risk for that benefit. If you have a class with that much power fine but at least make it a bit risky for them to do nothing but powermoves 4,5 and 6 times in a row. I cant do that many attacks in a row with a regular character without running out of stamina. The stamina attacks are a bit harsh when the second most important, or some would argue the most important stat, being stamina, is so easily depleted from very low risk moves that can be rifiled off with the same speed as a wardens light attacks yet cause way more damage as a whole when you include the stamina hit in it as well.
Man who cant stand, cant fight.
Member
Oh I agree some heroes need to have their risk/reward looked at. I don't for a second think the game is perfectly balanced, but if they didn't change a single thing moving forward, I'd still play. Earlier today I played a game where a Cent hit me maybe once and I otherwise destroyed him. Then the next fight, I mis-timed a few things and I got hard-chained/cinematic'd. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes the bear eats you.
But yes, certain things need investigating. I disagree fundamentally with how you think GB should be implemented, so I think that one can rest. Also, I understand the increase in players increases the likelihood of crashing, so I see your point there.
As far as free heavies, I did misinterpret you, so that's my bad. However, what would you give a class as a reward for a successful GB? A light? The Orochi and Warden send their regards, especially the Orochi. Not all lights are created equal, but I'm pretty sure most side heavies are created pretty equally. Some classes have better wall punish than others, but most of the time it allows a top heavy when one is otherwise not guaranteed, so it's kind of close at least. I'm not looking at something like Cent's wall punish, because it's ludicrous and is just an outlier.
And if you don't get a light, or a heavy, why ever GB? Just to ledge? Only to throw someone into an environmental? Only to get a confirmed hit off of the wall? I see the point of GB as you opening them up for an attack, so you should get something at least.
As far as the feint, you can defend it. I will grant you that some classes have faster heavies than others and if you have a slower heavy with a longer cancel direction, it's much easier to cancel your attempted parry after they feint. Haven't you ever gotten into a "feint war" with someone where you are both feinting your attempted parries back and forth? I used to do that with Warden all the time early on, when feinting because the new hotness. With Zerk, side heavies seem to transition way too quickly for it to reliably cancel, and the top heavy cancels too late to reliably get your guard back. I just need to play more carefully. If you time it right as the defender, you should as the game stands be able to cancel your attack. Then again, maybe it just depends on your hero. At that point, it's a matter of having the patience to read that the ability is going to completion and parrying at the appropriate time instead of just letting your muscle memory get the better of you.
Cent's stam damage is absolutely absurd with how much he can spam them, but I don't recall anything else as absurd as Cent with the other classes. I could be wrong, maybe there's an abuse I just don't see in 4v4s at my level.
Anyway, it's a very fine line balancing defense and offense in a game like this. I think they straddle it pretty well so far, even with some of the shortcomings, and hopefully some of the upcoming changes to the defensive meta will help shift it to an even better state.
