Junior Member
Ok something I want to talk about is the tiers that are in for honor, in my mind there are 3 low tier, mid tier and top tier. However there is also a tier that is below low tier, this is the tier i call unplayable and this is the tier were u cannot win at all with these heroes. The heroes go as of this(From top to bottom)
Top Tier
Centurion
Gladiator
Raider
Warlord
Mid Tier
Orochi
Shinobi
Beserker
Nubushi
Shugoki
Peacekeeper
Highlander
Low Tier
Warden
Lawbringer
Valkyrie
Unplayable Tier
Kensei
Conqueror
With this many will probably go and ask why warden is in low tier, the answer is actually quite simple and that is everyone above him can easily beat him if the player behind them can somewhat parry and can dodge as there is a specific timing that will always make it so that u dodge the wardens shoulder bash, and considering all he has is a top light and a zone *that gives a free GB on a BLOCK* I do think he belongs in the low tier no matter how much people play him. Another one might be PK with her light spam, but being honest the moment u learn to parry she cannot do anything as i can now consistently parry her lights and occasionally the zones.
But now lets talk about the big four, and I think I will go from the bottom of the top tier, which is Warlord. He has been top tier for a while now with his massive hp great damage, longest throw in the game, hyper armor on a lot of his attacks and a great headbutt that will catch a lot off guard. Some say that that he cannot get guard breaks after they introduce the change, which I say no, he can middle mouse button(for me on PC) to attack the enemy with a shield lowering their stamina and getting a guaranteed heavy. For his great defenses great punishes and being great all around with mobility. He is a better in duels then 4v4 but is still amazing in both thus this is the reason he has been an infamous character for a while.
Now we go to Raider, and where to begin he has some of the best 50/50's in the game, good hp great mix ups, and the strongest punishes for going to the floor, he will be gutted a bit with the no longer guaranteed GB's and heavies but still as we all know with a single light he can go into his zone 50/50 which does massive damage. Also for having one of the most powerful charges with it being able to diminish most peoples stamina in 1 go and do equivalent damage to a lot of peoples heavies.
Now lets talk about the new kid on the block Gladiator, and my,my he is very strong. Lets start with what makes him so strong, he has one of the best zones in the game with it doing 1 bar of damage and it being guaranteed if the opponent gets hit with the unblock able , but even if they miss they can cancel it. He has many unblock able attacks and many of them drain at your stamina, also he has decent hp. He is basically the rivaling contender for Centurion with both being amazing in duels and even better in 4v4's
as he will bully you out of your stamina resulting in a trident 50/50, this is also helped with how he has light attacks that the PK would be jealous of.
And finally the strongest hero in the game, Centurion, and where to begin on this one. Lets start with reasons why people believe he shouldn't be nerved, he has below average hp, he is very mix up heavy so if the opponent doesn't fall for his feints you will fine. Which I call complete BS on, he has literally the strongest light parry punish in the game with it being able to cut down most peoples hp in half, the same goes for the punish for you being thrown into a wall. He has a kick that is not very punishable and is godlike in 4v4's. He drains your stamina like a vampire draining your blood, and he has the same thing going for him like warlord where even after the no guaranteed GB's and heavies he has a move where on parry he can drain even more of your stamina and hit u with a heavy. He has simply so much versatility and so much damage. He is the best sides of gladiator with some damage buffs. He also has a lot of unblock able attacks which not only make it annoying in 1v1's but extremely frustrating in 4v4's
Nerfs
Suggestions that i have for nerfs is for the following
Warlord - Takeaway some of the hyper armor on his attacks he can have it on some but not most of his heavies, his headbutt should also be more punishable with dodging it being able to give you a free GB. And if nerf the amount of stamina drained from his parry counter thingy...
Raider - Make him have weaker punishment, as he he can do massive damage most of the time it being around 3 bars of damage, which is not OK for a vanguard. Also his forward throw should not drain your stamina to the point where most of the time you will be out of it, and he gets a guaranteed light with the knee to the face which can kill everyone who is on that last bar of life.
Gladiator - Make his attacks have higher stamina costs as I am having flashbacks of the cost of the original Shoulder bash costs. Another thing that could happen is to make it so his zone is not cancelled making it more risky and you should only use it at specific times instead of being something that cannot be punished, so this would mean if u dodge u should be able to get a parry.
Centurion - His full charged heavy should not give him a guaranteed full charge punch this is because this results in massive unfair damage, this is the same to his throw into wall punish as he will heavily drain your stamina throw you and punch you, whilst doing massive damage and you having near to no stamina by the end of it, so I would also nerf the amount of stamina he takes especially with the changes that are going to happen in the near future with the new changes happening when you are out of stamina. This would also be the same with warlord to nerf the amount of stamina he takes with his parry counter that will give him a guaranteed heavy.
Member
Unplayable Tier? As a Conqueror Main i dare to say No you are wrong. Hard to learn? Yes indeed, but far from unplayable! Also the Kensai while being one of the weaker Heroes in the Rooster is also far from unplayable. There is a thing called Feints you know., and the Conqueror has the best Feints in the Game. Parrying a Conq is easy, which is why have to rely on Fullguard Feints so much. Also it's the best class to take Multiple opponents on. There is no unplayable Tier.
I disagree with your List, but i don't want to go into Detail.
Watch this Video, a well played Conqueror is Meanance.
Junior Member
Im speaking in general and Im taking into consideration that the players are high skilled and have gotten to the point were I am, which is being able to parry most things, and if u rely on feints that already tells me a lot about the character. Also I am taking into consideration that both players are equal in skill.
In that video he was against some people who no offence are pretty crap.
Member
Skill is subjective, no matter how good you are, or about how many Players you have fought, you simply can't have an overview about all Players. Of course my opinion too is only Subjective. In higher Lvl Gamplay you simply have to Feint if you go on the Offensive no matter what you play, since like you said, Players at high skill Lvl can Parry Most things. Actually with the Conquerors Fullguard Feint, you can easily Bait for Parrys since you can cancel your Hevys at the very last second of the animation. Not all of the People he fights in the Video are highly skilled, but the Video deserves to be mention because Conq has one of the best Feints in the Game.
If you go Offensive, you have to Feint. Conq got that covered. And if you go Defensive? Well Conq is the best here as well, thanks to Superior block which means free GB on a blocked heavy, and you take no chip Damage. Of course high Lvl Players mix up Offense and Defense.
So tell me what Strategy would you use in High Lvl Gameplay? Special Attacks? Allmost all of them can be easily dodged at High Lvl Gameplay, so you have to Feint. Unless of course you go full turtle and never Attack outside Punishes, and in this case the Conq is a great Class too since he is a Turtle.
So again tell me, what do you rely on in high Lvl Gameplay if not Feints?
Senior Member
First off, I completely agree that full block stance is a fantastic tool and vital to conqueror's offensive capabilities. However to claim it's the "best feint in the game" and that conqueror has great offense as a result is just laughable. it merely makes conqueror offense outside of dash -> shield bash possible at all, not great. Your video shows purely 4v4, these people don't even know what a feint is. For example at the 1 minute mark, there's a raider trying to parry you twice while they are out of stamina. Why would a competent player do that? Conqueror's feigns are never going to beat the many unblockable attack feints that can be done. Conqueror has no unblockables they can feign and everything the conqueror can transition into after a feign is 100% reactable and quite easily so. Also you probably have your conqueror stacked with stamina reduction and regeneration gear, which helps negate just how terrible the 5 second delay to stamina regeneration imposed by full block stance is.Originally Posted by SoulEavens Go to original post
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@Dunkelninstinct
I never said the best, but one of the best (Personal opinion again, your Milage my Vary.). I don't mean to say tha Conq is very strong right now. He definitly needs a Buff. But he Is FAR from unplayable as the OP said. Not being able to Feint into an unblockable? Well yes he can't do that and of course he fares better in 4v4 than in 1v1. There are quite a few of other Classes who can't Feint into unblockable (Peacekeeper, berserker) for example. I am not here too say "Conq is sooo Strong! unbeatable." No that isn't right. But he is at least low Tier if not mid Tier. He definitly is not unplayable, which is the one thing I am really taking Issue with here..
Senior Member
You did say the best according to the following quote:Originally Posted by SoulEavens Go to original post
Either way, I think it's also absurd to call the conqueror's feints one of the best.Originally Posted by SoulEavens Go to original post
Agreed, he's definitely playable in 4v4. However, if you actually want to be competitive 1v1, he hardly qualifies as being playable sadly. We need to be blunt about the situation to get changes.Originally Posted by SoulEavens Go to original post
Certainly, but the claim is that he has one of the best feints. How are conqueror's feints any better than the standard feint unblockable or not? They aren't, they kill your stamina regeneration, you can't go into a guard break to catch a dodge, and full block stance is very risky to do if you have low stamina (which is easy to have happen when your stamina regeneration is constantly halted and you have the standard stats).Originally Posted by SoulEavens Go to original post
He isn't though at anything that isn't 4v4. Hardly anyone plays him in duels let alone tournaments. I can confidently say that I've played at most 5 unique conquerors in duel and I'm rep 27 and play mostly duels. For months the dev team have been admitting that conqueror needs buffs but still aren't doing it.Originally Posted by SoulEavens Go to original post
Member
Well i did say best. My bad. The Feints are better because in my opinion, they are harder to see coming. If Conq Feints a light into a Light that is extremely hard to parry. Also because you can bait for Parries with little Danger to yourself since you just need to Block, the Parry Attempt to get a free GB. Stamina is of course a Problem and after short Bursts you have to go back to turtling. If you still think Conqs Feints are not good despite this, then lets simply Agree to Disagree on this matter. You raised good Points, but in my Opinion the Pros outweigh the Cons. I admit that i don't play Duel very often, since i get BlackScreen Freeze Bug practically every second Match. But i have played my fair Share of Duels and on occasion i beat Players with much higher Rep then me. Once i beat a Rep 27 Warlord in Duel. Won 3 very close matches. He is not very Popular, thats right. How many Shugokis do you Face? I doubt there are many. Popularity is only to a degree a Measure on how strong a Hero is unless he has some kind of cheese like the Centurion. Also he is a heavy Class with a Defensive playstyle, that doesn't seem to appeal to many Players.
A bit Underpowered right now? Yes. total unplayble Trash Class? No.
Seeing as your Pic is a Conq, are you actually a Conq Main as well?
You seem Expierenced, so what kind of Buffs does Conq need in your Opinion? I think he needs more Damage on Light and Heavy Attacks, as well as Faster lights.
Senior Member
How? The conqueror straight up yells "te affligam" anytime you go into full block stance and has a distinct animation. The only way is that it's the first time they've seen a conqueror in ages and they have to become re-antiquated with the fact that conqueror has full block stance.Originally Posted by SoulEavens Go to original post
Just feigning one light is a challenge execution wise (definitely doable after practice), add that in with changing directions given the full block stance is also one of the directions you need to go to on the controller and it's insanely difficult and easy to mess up, and for what, one light? If you can do that consistently, then good on you, but that's insane compared to the level of execution your opponent needs.Originally Posted by SoulEavens Go to original post
Well actually I find shugokis one of the more frequent classes in duel You see, with shugoki, you actually get large rewards for a defensive play style, like you can parry and throw the opponent into the wall and get a good chunk of your own health back while taking basically all of their stamina and a good chunk of health. You get free hyper armor allowing you to trade always in your favor. Conq on the other hand you get like one heavy attack on a parry (which is the weakest heavy attack in the game) and some heroes can actually block after you parry them before a heavy can land because it's just that slow. Kensei on the other hand are the only ones that can really compete with the rarity of a conqueror in duel and conveniently it happens to be the other class that everyone pretty much agrees needs huge buffs and kensei is a vanguard, not a heavy with a defensive play style.Originally Posted by SoulEavens Go to original post
Also conqueror used to be used in tournament fairly regularly at the beginning until his stronger forms of the shield bash were nerfed heavily.
Yes, I'm a rep 15 conqueror and have mained conqueror since the open beta.Originally Posted by SoulEavens Go to original post
That's a given on the heavy attack damage buff. It's simply crazy that this class has one of the slowest heavies in the game but also the lowest damage one. That makes 0 sense balance wise. It can't be both slow and terrible damage. It's essentially high risk and low reward. The damage on conqueror's heavy used to be so bad that it couldn't even kill someone on their last bar, so they could actually take infinite heavies as long as they had the time to regenerate their last bar between each one.
I would be more hesitant on buffing the damage on light attacks since it is mostly guaranteed on a dash -> shield bash, and while that shield bash is easy to dodge with some practice it's also doesn't leave much room for punishing it. Maybe a speed increase is in order. Everyone cries that the conqueror turtles, well yea, you can't even throw a light without getting parried quite consistently.
Conqueror's biggest problem is that opponents can simply play passively and never give him anything to counter off of and the rare times your attacks make it through, they're hardly of much consequence to the opponent. You essentially have to just hope that the opponent won't exploit this or you're going to have a nearly impossible uphill battle. He used to have shield bash until the developers nerfed it into the ground in the beginning of season 1, yet they are taking ages to actually provide buffs when everyone knows that clearly the class needs helps. The only attack conqueror has that is big damage and reasonable amount of speed to hit is the fully charged heavy but unfortunately the opponent can easily just away from this and just never be in danger of being hit by it while you just blow your stamina.
A good start could be fixing conqueror's zone attack so that it isn't completely useless in 1v1. It's awful. Just look at warlord, he has an amazing zone attack and his defense isn't too far off from conquerors, zone attack is an extremely strong tool for many characters. We should also look into making the charged heavy not so easy to run away from, maybe more range although the conqueror already has a deceptively high range. One of the more out of the box ideas this forum has had in the past was to make his light attacks uninterruptible, that way you could put more pressure on with your conscript's attrition combo as the 2nd light is almost always at the very least blocked.
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