Senior Member
After around two weeks of experimentation I think I'm finally ready to give my statement for the betterment of this class. Most of these suggestions are aimed at QOL(quality of life) fixes which will mildly address some of the problems the HL is suffering against what I guess to be the developer's "intentions" -- so it will not address (what I view to be) fundamental limitations as designed and intended by the devs.
1. UI on heavies need to be applied sooner
UI protection for HL heavy attacks (or "super/hyper armor") needs to be applied sooner. Of the two comparable classes, the Shugoki wields an even slower heavy attack (@1,100ms) but is fully protected throughout the entire duration as long as Shug's UI shield is on. In case of the Warlord, his heavy attacks are unprotected during the start-up sequence, but he also wields a much faster heavy attack (800ms top, 900ms side).
In comparison, the Highlander heavy combines the worst properties of the Shug and WL's heavies.:
- HL heavies are unprotected at the start up sequence, like the Warlord
- HL heavies are clocked in at 1,000ms for both top and sides, almost as slow as the Shug's
Therefore, the end result is that the HL's heavies are protected during activation, but because it is almost as slow as the Shug's heavies, the UI phase of the heavy attack comes out proportionately later than the Warlord's. Through his higher HP than most classes and average speed of heavy attacks, Warlord's heavies are a very useful tool for trading damage. In comparison the HL is more limited due to having relatively low HP... and twice penalized due to being so slow.
I recommend the UI phase of the heavy attacks to be activated around similar timing as the Warlord's heavies.
2. OF lights
As people grow more accustomed to facing a HL, it is becoming increasingly difficult to straight-up land key initiators such as Fomorian kick or Caber toss. Especially difficult is when pitted against assassins equipped with dodge-attacks and quick/fast dodges that can be still spammed (thanks to meta-fix not being included with season 3). The more difficult it becomes to use major attacks during OF, the more important the OF light attack becomes... as it is seemingly becoming the "salt and light" for offensive patterns in OF for the HL.
The problem is...
- for a light attack, the stamina cost is insanely high. Approximately 4 uses @default stats is enough to run the stamina dry
- HL's light attacks are already pretty average in damage @15 per hit. OF light damage is slashed down to 10.
- The reach -- or rather "forward momentum" -- of the skill is too short.
I'd like to suggest one of the following:
(a) Keep the current weak damage, short reach as it is -- and lower the stamina cost by half, allowing for approximately 8 uses.
(b) Keep the current stamina cost as it is -- and increase damage to around 15~20, increase the reach, and add a stun effect
Either (a) or (b) would be GREATLY satisfactory. If the devs would go with (a) it would be a very nifty and useful light attack that would go a lot in making up for the shortcomings of OF, particularly providing the HL with a quick "jab" of an attack that could be used more freely to initiate mixups. (b) would also be a most excellent addition which many Highlander players would greatly welcome -- it would justify the high stamina cost with at least average level of damage, and bring in a very useful stun-daze effect for the HL to wield. For a class that's already being ridiculed "easiest to parry", a vision-impairing quick attack like OF would be just awesome to have. Compared to the ridiculous amount of stamina the Gladiator has and how he can easily spam his MA all around at any timing he wants, I don't think asking for a 15~20 damage light attack that stun-dazes, that comes only out in OF (no blocks, parries, or CGBs) and costs 1/4th stamina per pop is an unreasonable request.
3. A teensey bit more HP
Pretty much self explanatory. Let's add in +15 for 140 HP, same as Conq and Warlord levels.
4. Celtic Curse on dodges
Celtic Curse activation on left and right dodges... in addition to the standard front dash-heavy. No change to the skill itself, just allow the activation of Celtic Curse from any dodge movement except rearward backstep. This alone would greatly enhance the efficiency and intimidation factor of the HL kit and make him slightly less predictable.
5. uninterrupted lights
Re-iterate the "Uninterrupted Lights" trait, so it applies as a general trait as a Highlander, applying to both OF and DF, instead of just exclusively on OF lights. Just how much a class can benefit from the "uninterrupted light attack" trait can be attested by the Shugoki. If the Shugoki didn't have that trait, it would have been total trash. However just being able to force a light block and then still being able to proceed to combos adds a LOT to his tactics, especially in the field of the feint-game.
Honestly, these 5 changes to the Highlander, and I don't need any other change is necessary for other weaknesses he has.
Senior Member
Very good points. I agree with all of them. The HP pool increase and the UI early on heavy startups is needed. I think though that some hyperarmor at some point of the Zone Attack and the Running Attack would be well received as well.
I am not entirely sure about celtic curse on side doges though. I already kind of mislike seeing it abused by many. But I guess some utiility here and there to get into those attack strings further down the road would be helpful. Usually I'd say give him (at least) a slight damage boost across the board, but having celtic curse on side dodges could be evening the odds well enough already and on the other side in general the normal celtic curse can already be utilized as somewhat like a side dodge due to the evading capabilities of the spinning side heavies.
Additionally those running attacks should be able to take out more minions with its sweeps. It's terrible to see how you run into the crowd just don't hit the targets. Also, his general hitbox around him should be fixed as he seems that his sword often passes through bystanders.
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So if a HL has uninterruptible everything, and side dash attacks (a really good one that can hit from any angle), and gets uninterruptible heavies faster, what exactly are his weaknesses? His toolset already seems pretty wide, so how strong does he have to be in order to feel good?
Don't people appreciate when they have to try to minimize their own hero's weaknesses in a fight?
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Senior Member
only his lights should be uninterruptible. seeing as he's slower than a turtle... and his lights are most of the times parried (more often than any other hero) at least an uninterruptible should be ok.
celtic curse on side dodge would be a bit to much making him more of an assassin... what I would like to see tho it's (because it's already super easy to parry) the ability to cancel celtic curse AND CELTIC CURSE side faint. as of now, being unable to cancel that move (��dash + heavy) and the fact that its an easy read, makes the move somewhat useless in dominion and extremely useless in 1v1 (unless you plan on a fast death)
quiche UK activation its a must again because he is to slow.
things I really want to ad:
1. HL isn't fast enough to escape wardens vortex or conq vortex
2. OFFENSIVE stance, because of its lack of GB cgb block or parry, they should make his dash faster with a longer reach.if we can't defend, at least a chance to evade
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Our light attack is slow enough that it can be easily blocked, and there is such a massive window for a guard break while we swing a heavy attack that I am completely helpless against fast classes.
A class like the berzerker or the peacekeeper can attack a highlander so quickly, and dodge everything they do with no risk. Not being able to parry into a guard break negates any threat to them and they can just go full offensive. The timing of the counterattack would almost require I start the swing before an assassin which is the only power we have on the defense. The only way for us to threaten an assassin is if we do a heavy attack in the direction they plan to strafe-attack in. If they just stay in front of us and keep light attacking nothing we can do can interrupt them and they have plenty of time to strafe if they see us swinging a top heavy. And as I said before we cant even punish them with a feint heavy because their strafe is an attack in its own which does not allow them to be guard broken.
To sum it up:
If we decide to disengage they can outrun us.
If we roll away they can lunge attack with no risk.
If we light attack they just block.
If we heavy attack in any direction they will parry it because our heavy attacks are so slow, or you might even give away a free guard break into heavy attack/environmental death.
We cant swing a light attack fast enough to land a counterattack.
We cant guard break because the highlander doesnt have the GB tracking after a parry
If we do the dash heavy into the spin they can strafe-attack in the opposite direction to hit us without being hit themselves. (This does take some skill but once you get it down you are golden)
Offensive form is worthless as they could interrupt it in an instant, and assassins are too mobile to get hit with the kick or grab in the first place.
If they get low they can just run away, since as long as you keep an eye on the highlander you can avoid his dash-upper heavy.
You cant get rid of the defensive meta and not compensate the slower classes. The defensive meta is the only reason slow classes are viable, and highlander is one of the slowest of them all.
The highlander is fun to play against the medium and heavy classes, but we simply do not have the toolset to combat assassins. At the higher tiers of play only an assassin can fight an assassin. You ever see a non assassin banned in tournament play? Certainly not.
Senior Member
1. Hhmm I actually got out by throwing some lights in but that was mostly due to me reading he would be going for a GB or while the warden was not directly in my face. Sidedodges or rolls are also an option - so the usual stuff can work here. If you get countered though you might be trapped until after the second wave. I noticed with my warden that I had issues escaping it myself in the last couple of months and it seems that it has something to do with the fact I was mostly being caught during initiating a move myself.Originally Posted by Gemoroda Go to original post
2. The Dash in Offensive Form is a hell of a lot faster. Try it out. You are very mobile with very short recovery. People just don't utilize it yet. I think the distance is not the problem here as well. Better a short distance but fast recovery to get past a barriage of quick attacks than being caught easily after one long lasting dodge.
I can agree that the assassin classes Peacekeeper, Gladiator and Berserker always get the best of me atm. Especially with the Peacekeeper being again in a stage of her own usually hand my *** over to me without me being able to do much as soon as they get rolling. The bleed and/or high damage combined by very fast attacks displays here again how "overpowered" these classes are in terms of DPS. Sometimes I can manage to catch them with a good read or maneuver them into a sidedoge and parry it, but I seldomly can punish it effectively due to the gb reach being broken atm and the deminished option you have out of it (good thing if there's a wall nearby, but then again you have to get the GB first).
So far I am doing pretty good against Shinobi and also against Orochi. For the Shinobi the unexpected range and the moves' timing often lead to that I can catch them during or after their double dodge in distance or while they try to engage. Due to the low health I only need a couple of successful hits, so that evens it out with the Shinobi on the other hand being able kill me quickly too.
My further strategy would be to learn how to utilize the offensive form against assassins. I believe it could be possible to make use of the faster dodges and especially of those fast enhanced lights, which I practice to throw out before Balor's Might. The intention would be to interrupt offensive stance counter attempts and then go for the remaining options. Currently trying to figure out if I can perform it with just one finger (I usually have just my index finger on R1 and R2) or if I'd better use one finger on light attack while having the middle finger on heavy. Note: With one finger you have to switch very fast in order to remain in offensive stance, you don't need to hold heavy (R2) the whole time.
Senior Member
thats what i do 2. fast swich between r2 and r1. but jn wardens sb, if in def stance the dodge is to slow to escape wardens sb. you literrally have to guess it because its impkssible on reactikn. and if he faints, I'm dead... and offensive... ven tho it's faster, it's super susceptible to a faint into light
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Offensive form against quick attackers would just end in horrible death. They would see that you couldent block so they could come at you with light attacks. An assassin's light attack could interrupt literally everything you do in offensive mode, and you dont have the super armor to try and time a heavy attack on them.
Offensive mode is only useful in a 2v1 to turn you into a disabler and to make it harder to just ignore your attacks.
Against an assassin we have literally nothing. Peacekeepers and berzerkers are running through us.
Any class that can spam light attacks while switching directions and feinting and being close enough to just guard break when you try and parry can just steamroll us.
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