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Those were his apprentices. If he had clones, they would have had the same moveset and clothing as him, but they didn't.Originally Posted by Veerdin-Wraith Go to original post
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You are very welcome. If there's anything else that is still unclear, I'm sure that I could be of assistance- just PM me.Originally Posted by Artys_Arryn Go to original post
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You are very welcome.Originally Posted by Lord_Letholdus Go to original post
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So I posted this earlier but my account was broken and new posts I made weren't showing up. So here it is, again:
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While I was doing some cleaning up today, I got thinking about the imagery of the Eternal Damnation, Bog Witch and Soul Eater effects that got mentioned a few pages back. And I think I've figured out some ideas behind them...
Each one represents what their respective faction fears the most, at least in a cultural sense.
Starting with the Knights faction and the Eternal Damnation effect: A sharp-toothed, screeching skull, wreathed in eldritch blue flames.
Now, the skull imagery itself is pretty obvious, a riff on the concept of death and decay, the end of life, the Grim Reaper. It's pretty easy to say that the Knights fear Death, right? “Well, duh!” You might be thinking. “Doesn't everybody fear death?” And in a basic, primal sense, yeah. Alive things tend to want to stay alive. But in a cultural sense? Not so much... Let's compare the Knights to the other two factions:
The Viking religion seems to follow the real-world ancient Norse religion, right down to the terminology and symbolism (more on that later) and as such, they believe in Valhalla; a kind of paradise where warriors go when they fall in battle. Entry into Valhalla is so sought after, in fact, that many Viking warriors deliberately seek out battles where they are outmatched or outnumbered, so that they can die with glory on the battlefield. So “death” isn't exactly something they fear. At least, not death in combat.
The Samurai, on the other hand, seem to have a belief system rooted in Japanese mythology. I'm not very well versed in the old Shinto religions, or Buddhism, either, but the feudal Japanese Samurai had a tradition of ritual suicide, which carried over all the way into the 20th century. They valued honour and the sanctity of their soul over their physical life. And in the For Honor story mode, we see this very thing demonstrated when the Orochi and Seijuro confront eachother in the Imperial Palace; Seijuro is openly offended when the Orochi refuses to kill him after he's defeated, and when Seijuro resists the offer to become commander of the army, the Orochi offers their own life instead. I think its safe to say, then, that the Samurai faction in For Honor also value honour over life.
This brings us back to the Knights. Their fear of death is twofold; a lore snippet during the campaign has Appolyon mention that the Knights have only one god, in a religious sense, but that their “real” gods are material things like steel and gold. On the latter point, we can assume the Knights – culturally – are quite materialistic. And the thing about material goods is that you can't exactly take them with you when you die. So naturally, death would bring with it the fear of loss, of being without the things you held dear in life.
But from a more religious standpoint, we can assume that the Knights (with the possible exception of the Centurion and the Gladiator, who hail from a different, older culture) have a belief system that is either identical or similar to real-world Christianity, with a single god and two (possibly three) afterlives, one of which is “Hell”, a place of punishment; “Eternal Damnation.”
Given that the Knights faction is based on real-world European culture between the 13th and 16th centuries, it's safe to assume that their culture is quite religiously focused. So the fear of divine punishment, of suffering for all eternity in Hell, would be quite a real fear. Indeed, the Knights have another effect; “Hellfire”, which draws from this concept.
A common depiction of Hell is a place of unquenchable flames that burn forever, scorching not just the body, but the soul itself as a form of torture. And what do we see in the Eternal Damnation effect? Eldritch flames, which persist even after death on the fallen.
Conclusion: The Eternal Damnation effect represents Death and Divine Retribution, the cultural fears of the Knight's faction.
Moving on to the Vikings, with the Bog Witch effect: A feather-adorned bird skull, surrounded by eerie green flames and accompanied by floating, ghostly fires and shadowy ravens.
As we've previously discussed, the Vikings don't fear death in the same way that the Knights do. So what, then, would such a people be afraid of? Well, I'll tell you: The supernatural, and the unknown. The effect depicts what is clearly meant to be a kind of ritual mask of some sort. Not the image of a spectral entity or demon, but a made thing, something constructed by human hands. Something that, perhaps, possesses magical qualities. And those floating green fires? I believe those are meant to be Will'o'the'Wisps: Supernatural spirits from European folklore, known for leading people astray in forests and marshes.
The Vikings, I think its safe to say, are probably the most “primitive” of the three factions in For Honor. Their people are scattered and constantly have conflicts with eachother, and unlike the Knights and Samurai – who both seem to have some kind of ruling governmental body behind them – the Vikings operate in smaller, more independent groups lead by Jarls and Warlords. Their architecture and technology is more limited, too; while the Knights and Samurai, for instance, have access to black powder that they use for grenades and fireworks, the Vikings use much more rudimentary explosives, like oil flasks.
More “primative” and “uncivilised” cultures tend to believe more readily in the supernatural. We see this demonstrated in a lot of places. The Raider class, for instance, doesn't wear armour on their chest, reasoning that the day of their deaths has already been decided by the gods, so why should they weigh themselves down? And the Valkyrie class fights to earn a place in Valhalla for those who didn't fall in battle (again, more on that later...)
But nowhere is this more prevalent than with the Shaman class: In our modern world, somebody who hears voices that tell them to kill is probably suffering from some kind of psychosis or mental disorder. But to a less advanced culture, like the Vikings in For Honor, such a person would be seen as being possessed or cursed by evil spirits. Perhaps by a witch of some kind?
Magic and those who wield it would likely be something the Vikings believed in, so the idea of some malicious sorcerer living on the fringes of society, constructing ritual effigies out of bones and feathers, and cursing the minds of people, driving them mad with rage and bloodlust, would absolutely be something they feared.
But what about the “Bog” part of the “Bog Witch” effect? Well, here's where a little pet theory of mine comes into play...
"Bog” is just another name for a swamp or marshland, and in the world of For Honor, there is one particular swamp that is of note: The Myre, depicted as being the most inhospitable of the three lands. A twisting, churning, ever changing maze of swamps, rain-forests and canyons, so turbulent that not even the Samurai, whose capital city sits atop a plateau in its centre, have been able to build a permanent settlement there.
As we learn in the story mode campaign, the Viking faction once attempted to invade the Myre using a fleet of ships. This attempted invasion was a spectacular failure, as not a single Viking ship ever returned from it. I think its safe to assume, then, that most (if not all) of the Vikings aboard this fleet were killed not by defending Samurai, but by the Myre itself.
Disease, deep mud, starvation, wild animals, and perhaps other, lesser known terrors lurk in the Myre, ready to claim any would-be assailant who is brave and foolish enough to try and cross it. To the Vikings, a death in battle grants entry to Valhalla, but to die at the hands of some sickness, or at creatures that stalk the deep Myre forests? These unfortunate warriors would be barred from entering the afterlife with their comrades. And to the Vikings, this could be seen as a fate far worse than death.
And here's where my theory comes in... Think about the “Valkyrie” class, for a moment. In Norse Mythology, the “Valkyrie” was a kind of mythical creature, a horse-riding warrior woman who would come and collect the souls of fallen warriors, carting them off to the halls of Valhalla. But in For Honor, the Valkyrie is a real, physical person, a warrior who fights to earn a place in Valhalla for those who never got the chance to die in battle. To me, this stands out, because as far as I know (and I could be wrong) no such practice ever existed in the real world.
What sort of thing would lead to a culture developing this kind of “loophole” in their religion, then? Well, how about a huge number of warriors perishing in unknown, possibly terrible ways at the hands of a swamp, rather than an enemy force? Imagine you're a Viking warrior, and you hear news that the fleet that sailed in to invade the Samurai lands was not only wiped out, but that their souls were also barred from entering the afterlife. Would you want to try and follow them?
My theory goes that the Valkyrie order in For Honor came about in response to this event, a way for the Vikings to both boost their morale, and also to give them the confidence to attempt an attack on the Myre again. We actually have a real-world example of something similar with the Crusades. One of the big selling points of the Crusades was that people believed participating would earn them salvation in the eyes of the Christian god. The Crusades were, essentially, a "get-out-of-Hell-free card" for many people. Perhaps the Valkyrie are something similar?
Conclusion: The Bog Witch effect represents the Supernatural and the Unknown, and Death outside of Battle, the fears of the Viking faction.
Last, but not least, we have the Samurai with the Soul Eater effect: A demonic mask, wavering with ghostly fire and gleaming red eyes:
Unlike the Knights, the Samurai do not fear death. And unlike the Vikings, they do not require their deaths to be at the hands of battle, nor do they fear the Myre, which to them is a protective wall against outside invasion. So, what do the Samurai fear, above all else?
This one was a bit tricky, because historically, “demons” can represent a whole lot of things. But I think, for the Samurai faction in For Honor, the demon (or “Oni”) depicted in the Soul Eater effect represents the corruption and destruction of the soul.
Based on what little I know about ancient Japanese religions, and by the things we see depicted in For Honor's Samurai-controlled areas, they seem to believe that existence continues after death, and that the fallen become spirits of some kind, occupying a sort of spirit realm, or otherworld. It makes sense, then, that the idea of something threatening their immortal soul would be more frightening to them than any physical threat could ever be.
After all, this is a culture of warriors who will willingly sacrifice their own lives in the name of honour, a culture that is used to death, and perhaps even considers death a positive thing; something to look forward to as a passage into the next world. For them, the idea that this immortal spirit of theirs could be either corrupted or destroyed by some outside force, like a demon, for instance, would terrify them!
Let's look at both sides of this. First, there's the idea of the soul becoming “Corrupted”. This would be frightening for the same reason the thought of getting mind-controlled or brainwashed while alive is scary; the idea that who you are, who you know yourself to be, could all be wiped away and replaced by something evil. Perhaps something that would then go after those you care about and value, becoming your own worst enemy.
But, depending on your perspective, the Soul Eater effect might also represent the destruction of the soul. Essentially the idea of absolute oblivion: The idea of your soul not being changed, but instead being erased totally. No afterlife, no spirits, not even a demonic existence. Just complete and utter nothingness after death.
We see both of these shown in the Soul Eater effect when executing somebody: The killer's face becomes a demonic mask, which gapes unnaturally and laughs, while a small, blue soul wisp is pulled from the fallen victim's body, and consumed.
Conclusion: The Soul Eater effect represents Corruption of the Soul, and Oblivion after Death, the fears the Samurai faction.
I could be totally wrong, but that's what my brain came up with while I was packing the dishwasher today, so I hope you enjoyed it!
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1) The Gladiators aren't from the same culture as the Centurions. The tradition of gladiator fights is a hold-over from the Roman dynasty, yes, but the Gladiators themselves aren't actually from that.Originally Posted by Veerdin-Wraith Go to original postSo I posted this earlier but my account was broken and new posts I made weren't showing up. So here it is, again:
---------------------------------
While I was doing some cleaning up today, I got thinking about the imagery of the Eternal Damnation, Bog Witch and Soul Eater effects that got mentioned a few pages back. And I think I've figured out some ideas behind them...
Each one represents what their respective faction fears the most, at least in a cultural sense.
Starting with the Knights faction and the Eternal Damnation effect: A sharp-toothed, screeching skull, wreathed in eldritch blue flames.
Now, the skull imagery itself is pretty obvious, a riff on the concept of death and decay, the end of life, the Grim Reaper. It's pretty easy to say that the Knights fear Death, right? “Well, duh!” You might be thinking. “Doesn't everybody fear death?” And in a basic, primal sense, yeah. Alive things tend to want to stay alive. But in a cultural sense? Not so much... Let's compare the Knights to the other two factions:
The Viking religion seems to follow the real-world ancient Norse religion, right down to the terminology and symbolism (more on that later) and as such, they believe in Valhalla; a kind of paradise where warriors go when they fall in battle. Entry into Valhalla is so sought after, in fact, that many Viking warriors deliberately seek out battles where they are outmatched or outnumbered, so that they can die with glory on the battlefield. So “death” isn't exactly something they fear. At least, not death in combat.
The Samurai, on the other hand, seem to have a belief system rooted in Japanese mythology. I'm not very well versed in the old Shinto religions, or Buddhism, either, but the feudal Japanese Samurai had a tradition of ritual suicide, which carried over all the way into the 20th century. They valued honour and the sanctity of their soul over their physical life. And in the For Honor story mode, we see this very thing demonstrated when the Orochi and Seijuro confront eachother in the Imperial Palace; Seijuro is openly offended when the Orochi refuses to kill him after he's defeated, and when Seijuro resists the offer to become commander of the army, the Orochi offers their own life instead. I think its safe to say, then, that the Samurai faction in For Honor also value honour over life.
This brings us back to the Knights. Their fear of death is twofold; a lore snippet during the campaign has Appolyon mention that the Knights have only one god, in a religious sense, but that their “real” gods are material things like steel and gold. On the latter point, we can assume the Knights – culturally – are quite materialistic. And the thing about material goods is that you can't exactly take them with you when you die. So naturally, death would bring with it the fear of loss, of being without the things you held dear in life.
But from a more religious standpoint, we can assume that the Knights (with the possible exception of the Centurion and the Gladiator, who hail from a different, older culture) have a belief system that is either identical or similar to real-world Christianity, with a single god and two (possibly three) afterlives, one of which is “Hell”, a place of punishment; “Eternal Damnation.”
Given that the Knights faction is based on real-world European culture between the 13th and 16th centuries, it's safe to assume that their culture is quite religiously focused. So the fear of divine punishment, of suffering for all eternity in Hell, would be quite a real fear. Indeed, the Knights have another effect; “Hellfire”, which draws from this concept.
A common depiction of Hell is a place of unquenchable flames that burn forever, scorching not just the body, but the soul itself as a form of torture. And what do we see in the Eternal Damnation effect? Eldritch flames, which persist even after death on the fallen.
Conclusion: The Eternal Damnation effect represents Death and Divine Retribution, the cultural fears of the Knight's faction.
Moving on to the Vikings, with the Bog Witch effect: A feather-adorned bird skull, surrounded by eerie green flames and accompanied by floating, ghostly fires and shadowy ravens.
As we've previously discussed, the Vikings don't fear death in the same way that the Knights do. So what, then, would such a people be afraid of? Well, I'll tell you: The supernatural, and the unknown. The effect depicts what is clearly meant to be a kind of ritual mask of some sort. Not the image of a spectral entity or demon, but a made thing, something constructed by human hands. Something that, perhaps, possesses magical qualities. And those floating green fires? I believe those are meant to be Will'o'the'Wisps: Supernatural spirits from European folklore, known for leading people astray in forests and marshes.
The Vikings, I think its safe to say, are probably the most “primitive” of the three factions in For Honor. Their people are scattered and constantly have conflicts with eachother, and unlike the Knights and Samurai – who both seem to have some kind of ruling governmental body behind them – the Vikings operate in smaller, more independent groups lead by Jarls and Warlords. Their architecture and technology is more limited, too; while the Knights and Samurai, for instance, have access to black powder that they use for grenades and fireworks, the Vikings use much more rudimentary explosives, like oil flasks.
More “primative” and “uncivilised” cultures tend to believe more readily in the supernatural. We see this demonstrated in a lot of places. The Raider class, for instance, doesn't wear armour on their chest, reasoning that the day of their deaths has already been decided by the gods, so why should they weigh themselves down? And the Valkyrie class fights to earn a place in Valhalla for those who didn't fall in battle (again, more on that later...)
But nowhere is this more prevalent than with the Shaman class: In our modern world, somebody who hears voices that tell them to kill is probably suffering from some kind of psychosis or mental disorder. But to a less advanced culture, like the Vikings in For Honor, such a person would be seen as being possessed or cursed by evil spirits. Perhaps by a witch of some kind?
Magic and those who wield it would likely be something the Vikings believed in, so the idea of some malicious sorcerer living on the fringes of society, constructing ritual effigies out of bones and feathers, and cursing the minds of people, driving them mad with rage and bloodlust, would absolutely be something they feared.
But what about the “Bog” part of the “Bog Witch” effect? Well, here's where a little pet theory of mine comes into play...
"Bog” is just another name for a swamp or marshland, and in the world of For Honor, there is one particular swamp that is of note: The Myre, depicted as being the most inhospitable of the three lands. A twisting, churning, ever changing maze of swamps, rain-forests and canyons, so turbulent that not even the Samurai, whose capital city sits atop a plateau in its centre, have been able to build a permanent settlement there.
As we learn in the story mode campaign, the Viking faction once attempted to invade the Myre using a fleet of ships. This attempted invasion was a spectacular failure, as not a single Viking ship ever returned from it. I think its safe to assume, then, that most (if not all) of the Vikings aboard this fleet were killed not by defending Samurai, but by the Myre itself.
Disease, deep mud, starvation, wild animals, and perhaps other, lesser known terrors lurk in the Myre, ready to claim any would-be assailant who is brave and foolish enough to try and cross it. To the Vikings, a death in battle grants entry to Valhalla, but to die at the hands of some sickness, or at creatures that stalk the deep Myre forests? These unfortunate warriors would be barred from entering the afterlife with their comrades. And to the Vikings, this could be seen as a fate far worse than death.
And here's where my theory comes in... Think about the “Valkyrie” class, for a moment. In Norse Mythology, the “Valkyrie” was a kind of mythical creature, a horse-riding warrior woman who would come and collect the souls of fallen warriors, carting them off to the halls of Valhalla. But in For Honor, the Valkyrie is a real, physical person, a warrior who fights to earn a place in Valhalla for those who never got the chance to die in battle. To me, this stands out, because as far as I know (and I could be wrong) no such practice ever existed in the real world.
What sort of thing would lead to a culture developing this kind of “loophole” in their religion, then? Well, how about a huge number of warriors perishing in unknown, possibly terrible ways at the hands of a swamp, rather than an enemy force? Imagine you're a Viking warrior, and you hear news that the fleet that sailed in to invade the Samurai lands was not only wiped out, but that their souls were also barred from entering the afterlife. Would you want to try and follow them?
My theory goes that the Valkyrie order in For Honor came about in response to this event, a way for the Vikings to both boost their morale, and also to give them the confidence to attempt an attack on the Myre again. We actually have a real-world example of something similar with the Crusades. One of the big selling points of the Crusades was that people believed participating would earn them salvation in the eyes of the Christian god. The Crusades were, essentially, a "get-out-of-Hell-free card" for many people. Perhaps the Valkyrie are something similar?
Conclusion: The Bog Witch effect represents the Supernatural and the Unknown, and Death outside of Battle, the fears of the Viking faction.
Last, but not least, we have the Samurai with the Soul Eater effect: A demonic mask, wavering with ghostly fire and gleaming red eyes:
Unlike the Knights, the Samurai do not fear death. And unlike the Vikings, they do not require their deaths to be at the hands of battle, nor do they fear the Myre, which to them is a protective wall against outside invasion. So, what do the Samurai fear, above all else?
This one was a bit tricky, because historically, “demons” can represent a whole lot of things. But I think, for the Samurai faction in For Honor, the demon (or “Oni”) depicted in the Soul Eater effect represents the corruption and destruction of the soul.
Based on what little I know about ancient Japanese religions, and by the things we see depicted in For Honor's Samurai-controlled areas, they seem to believe that existence continues after death, and that the fallen become spirits of some kind, occupying a sort of spirit realm, or otherworld. It makes sense, then, that the idea of something threatening their immortal soul would be more frightening to them than any physical threat could ever be.
After all, this is a culture of warriors who will willingly sacrifice their own lives in the name of honour, a culture that is used to death, and perhaps even considers death a positive thing; something to look forward to as a passage into the next world. For them, the idea that this immortal spirit of theirs could be either corrupted or destroyed by some outside force, like a demon, for instance, would terrify them!
Let's look at both sides of this. First, there's the idea of the soul becoming “Corrupted”. This would be frightening for the same reason the thought of getting mind-controlled or brainwashed while alive is scary; the idea that who you are, who you know yourself to be, could all be wiped away and replaced by something evil. Perhaps something that would then go after those you care about and value, becoming your own worst enemy.
But, depending on your perspective, the Soul Eater effect might also represent the destruction of the soul. Essentially the idea of absolute oblivion: The idea of your soul not being changed, but instead being erased totally. No afterlife, no spirits, not even a demonic existence. Just complete and utter nothingness after death.
We see both of these shown in the Soul Eater effect when executing somebody: The killer's face becomes a demonic mask, which gapes unnaturally and laughs, while a small, blue soul wisp is pulled from the fallen victim's body, and consumed.
Conclusion: The Soul Eater effect represents Corruption of the Soul, and Oblivion after Death, the fears the Samurai faction.
I could be totally wrong, but that's what my brain came up with while I was packing the dishwasher today, so I hope you enjoyed it!
2) Apollyon says, specifically, that the "Knights of Ashfeld worship a single god". So, that leads me to believe that the knights in other parts of the world must worship the Roman pantheon, as the gladiator (who clearly comes from the more civilized cities in the Knight's empire) openly says in his callouts "Mars favors me", the god of war.
I think it might be the case that, the Roman empire in For Honor's universe (up until the Cataclysm at 1000 A.D) not only lasted much longer than they did in our world, but also must have taken a different path in terms of religion. It may be the case that For Honor's roman empire adopted Christianity into its fold alongside their existing pantheon. I think that, when the time came for their empire to expand east into Ashfeld, the population they must have sent there was predominantly Christian.
I would posit that when Apollyon mentions how the Knights worships gods of iron, gold, steel, and power, she must have been thinking of something other than the god worshipped by Ashfeld's inhabitants. Why? Because, in that very same sentence, she mentions the religions of the Vikings and Samurai, who both have polytheistic pantheons.
3) The Knight's materialistic nature comes as no surprise, considering the fact that each Legion is responsible for the safe-guarding of farmland and villages all about Ashfeld- the source of the supplies and manpower they need to protect said things, as well as the knight empire, itself.
4) Your theory about Valkyries is compelling. Though, the invasion into The Myre happened mere decades before the events of the story mode. I'm not certain that the Vikings are organized enough to gather together an official group of warrior-priestesses in response to something so specific. I find it more likely that the Valkyries were formed some amount of centuries ago, back when the Vikings were more unified and when every Clan would have some connection to the group.
I agree that the death of so many warriors at th hands of something so pathetic would be seen as an immense shame, but I think that the Vikings would be more prone to simply blaming whoever was stupid enough to lead such an expedition, rather than suddenly have an existential crisis.
And, by the way, I heard directly from the mouth of an Asatru worshiper (Asatru are people who worship the norse pantheon, into the modern day) that there are other afterlives, apart from Valhalla, that one can gain entrance to. I don't know how true that is, but apparently, Valhalla is considered the "best option".
5) The Samurai of For Honor, to me, seem to believe in an odd amalgamation of Shinto and Buddhism. We see statues of Buddha-esque figures, but also wide varieties of Shinto-like figurines and imagery- like Oni. We see Ranja worshipping at the foot of a statue of... something. She also shrieks something about "ancestors".
I would strongly recommend looking of "Mythology & Fiction Explained" on YouTube- he has a ton of videos on mythology of all manners.
Senior Member
This is true. Typically 3 locations are given for the Vikings afterlife; Valhalla, Fólkvangr and Hel. Both Valhalla and Fólkvangr are very similar, Odin rules over Valhalla and Freya rules over Fólkvangr.And, by the way, I heard directly from the mouth of an Asatru worshiper (Asatru are people who worship the norse pantheon, into the modern day) that there are other afterlives, apart from Valhalla, that one can gain entrance to. I don't know how true that is, but apparently, Valhalla is considered the "best option".
Hel is the Viking "version" of Hell, but it's not eternal torment for your sins. People who die of old age or disease, i.e. not memorably in battle or similar fates, go there. It's described more or less as just a really sad and depressing place.
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Dang, they send them to Manchester? That's cruel yoOriginally Posted by Tundra 793 Go to original post
Awesome lore posts from Veerdin, Arco and Fady. Loved reading them.
