1. #1

    As a Warden main, I have some suggestions...

    As stated, I am a Warden main, and I have to agree that the shoulder bash cancel into guard break is broken. Canceling the shoulder bash is fine, but canceling the shoulder bash into a guard break is what is causing the problem. Unless the enemy has a dodge attack like the Orochi, Kensei, Peacekeeper or Berserker, he has to play a literal guessing game in which he has to either guess if the Warden is going to go through with his shoulder bash and therefore dodge it, or guess if he's going to cancel into a guard break and therefore stand still and wait for it to happen and then proceed to counter guard break. There's no room for the enemy to rely on his reaction skills. So, the only way to avoid the guessing game, is to roll away completely. But we all know that takes up practically half of your stamina and constantly puts the players back to neutral position and thus enter into an annoying game of keep away.

    So, I think in order to avoid this, Ubisoft can do one of these three things:

    1. Substantially reduce the amount of stamina it takes to roll away.
    2. Make it so that you can still attempt to guard break if the enemy manages to guard break you in the middle of your dodge. (But that's probably even more game breaking)
    3. Give the Warden some kind of tiny buff so that way he doesn't have to rely so damn much on his shoulder bash or top light attack for that matter, and while your at it, buff the Orochi and the Conqueror as well since they too are practically one trick ponies at this point.

    Those are my suggestions and my opinion, though. What does anyone else think?
    Share this post

  2. #2
    1) No. imo there should never be a move/action that gets you out of a mix up/guess game where you trump anything in the mix up/mind game without having to read properly. I doubt roll will go anywhere. but it doesn't need a buff.

    2) would be OP. people like warlord and raider can already CGB from dodging though.

    3) I don't see why we need to really buff wardens other moves. His side lights continue/start his vortex. his top light continues/starts his vortex and serves as a way in on a reactionary player due to crushing counter. his top heavy works on a fully charged landed SB or a GB from a parry for a wall splat. his side heavies are max damage when not near a wall during GB and don't want to continue vortex. His double heavy combo can be feinted or let fly. And I think you might be able to land both if you throw right while the person is OOS. (prolly wrong there) the feint lets you enter with crushing counter. To put it simply. there is like one. maybe 2 things he doesn't often use. (zone being one since it's unsafe on block)

    Orochi does need a pretty big push. conq doesn't really considering full block feints and the sheer amount of absurdity you can do with that alone.
    I don't think warden is in need of another nerf. they already increased it's stamina cost and made it so you can only cancel in the beginning few MS of the bash. and added a delay so you can't literally spam SB cancels.

    I get that some people don't like that warden plays around SB. But that doesn't mean he needs changing. his kit is perfectly viable as is. A lot more that a majority of the other kits out there. and warden is basically one of if not the most balanced kits currently as well.
    Share this post

  3. #3
    Draghmar's Avatar Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    671
    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    and warden is basically one of if not the most balanced kits currently as well.
    Having spammable move is not what I consider balanced moveset. Especially when whole tactic of Warden depends on this move. You can say that he has options. But those options would be nothing if you'd remove this one move.
    You want balanced moveset? Nobushi. There is no single stupid aka safe move and you have to actually make some effort in order to attack efficiently. There is no great health pool, no super armor, no hyper armor or whatever. Just pure skill and mixing attacks. And to prevent some weird questions like 'So why there is no Nobushi in top tournaments?' - exactly because there is no safe moves so it's harder to play, especially against kits that has those.
     2 people found this helpful
    Share this post

  4. #4
    Originally Posted by Draghmar Go to original post
    Having spammable move is not what I consider balanced moveset. Especially when whole tactic of Warden depends on this move. You can say that he has options. But those options would be nothing if you'd remove this one move.
    You want balanced moveset? Nobushi. There is no single stupid aka safe move and you have to actually make some effort in order to attack efficiently. There is no great health pool, no super armor, no hyper armor or whatever. Just pure skill and mixing attacks. And to prevent some weird questions like 'So why there is no Nobushi in top tournaments?' - exactly because there is no safe moves so it's harder to play, especially against kits that has those.
    Warden's only safe move is her top light.
    You can call a warden spammy and unskilled all you want.
    It takes a player with good read skills and excellent reflexes to be able to react to a player on a dime and properly execute the correct response.

    Go ahead and try to SB cancel into a parry on a light. I wana see you try.
    Share this post

  5. #5
    Draghmar's Avatar Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    671
    I didn't say you can't counter it. It's just spammable as hell. The whole kit is made so SB is main focus. I have met a few (only) Wardens that actually were good because there were good and not because they caught me in SB spam with me missing top light from left guard because that's what most people tend to do - top light into SB or zone. Which is safe against Nobushi if I play at full range.
    You can defend warden all you want but the fact is he has important spammable move that is even encouraged to spam with because of how his moveset works. The same goes for few other classes so do feel alone in that. And those calsses could have even 100 different attacks but when there is at least one that is much better then others then who will bother?

    BTW If by 'reading' you mean guessing then it's not a skill. It's luck.
     2 people found this helpful
    Share this post

  6. #6
    Originally Posted by Draghmar Go to original post
    I didn't say you can't counter it. It's just spammable as hell. The whole kit is made so SB is main focus. I have met a few (only) Wardens that actually were good because there were good and not because they caught me in SB spam with me missing top light from left guard because that's what most people tend to do - top light into SB or zone. Which is safe against Nobushi if I play at full range.
    You can defend warden all you want but the fact is he has important spammable move that is even encouraged to spam with because of how his moveset works. The same goes for few other classes so do feel alone in that. And those calsses could have even 100 different attacks but when there is at least one that is much better then others then who will bother?

    BTW If by 'reading' you mean guessing then it's not a skill. It's luck.
    No. If you want spam go look at how he was able to cancel before they nerfed him. THAT is spamming. Him vortexing you isn't spam. and frankly making a flimsy argument if you're going on word play like that.

    You completely looked over how I pointed out how his entire kit is basically used. Just because YOU happen to run into average wardens that do the same thing over and over doesn't mean the kit is a problem. That would be like me calling warlord "spammy and broken" just because some players out there choose to repeatedly throw headbutts out for that guaranteed light. You're over simplifying his kit to make a point that you frankly don't have any backing to.

    Go watch a player like iskys. You'll see the entire kit be used. and either retract your argument. or continue on with this nonsense because you've got an issue with warden. And no. Reading in fighting terms means you knew what your opponent was going to do. and properly reacted. Devauling read to "luck" basically just shows how poorly you understand fighting games. and that you'll go to these sad lengths to try and drive home your own personal problem with no actual backing to them.

    I've said it once and i'll say it again. People are free to dislike warden because SB is a big part of the kit. But the moment you try to basically smear the warden because of your own personal issue is when I take issue.

    it's 6am here. i'm done. If you have an actual argument that doesn't involve trying to worm around wording i'll get back to you when I wake up. gnight.
    Share this post

  7. #7
    Draghmar's Avatar Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    671
    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    Go watch a player like iskys. You'll see the entire kit be used. and either retract your argument. or continue on with this nonsense because you've got an issue with warden. And no. Reading in fighting terms means you knew what your opponent was going to do. and properly reacted. Devauling read to "luck" basically just shows how poorly you understand fighting games. and that you'll go to these sad lengths to try and drive home your own personal problem with no actual backing to them.
    I don't have issue with Warden but with the design that he uses which is based on spammable moves and is used among many classes as a focus point.
    Yes it is better then was before but the idea of this design still remains.
    Just because someone is using whole moveset of Orochi doesn't make him mostly top light+zone attacker.

    Anyway if you're saying that your 'reading' is knowing then you basically made yourself an oracle here. You can not *know* what someone *will* do when there is more then one option to choose from. You can only guess based on some variables you choose to include. And guessing is based on luck alone. I know that those who play fighting games try to picture themselves as something more but the truth is it's still prediction and it means you are taking guess and guessing is based on simple luck.
    Share this post

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by Draghmar Go to original post
    Having spammable move is not what I consider balanced moveset. Especially when whole tactic of Warden depends on this move. You can say that he has options. But those options would be nothing if you'd remove this one move.
    You want balanced moveset? Nobushi. There is no single stupid aka safe move and you have to actually make some effort in order to attack efficiently. There is no great health pool, no super armor, no hyper armor or whatever. Just pure skill and mixing attacks. And to prevent some weird questions like 'So why there is no Nobushi in top tournaments?' - exactly because there is no safe moves so it's harder to play, especially against kits that has those.
    Funny that you brought her up. In duels you are totally right. In teammodes she is close to broken. And thats why she is constantly in tournaments 2vs2. All the time. There are several threads and essays about her and her mechanics that make her practically god tier in teammodes. Sb.Alanarkin ( dont know if i wrote it right) openend a thread here where he explains in all details better than i can. For some odd reason her performance in those modes completely falls under the table and nobody cares. But the truth is ,she is far from balanced when there is more then one Opponent.
    Share this post

  9. #9
    Draghmar's Avatar Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    671
    Originally Posted by Kzun84 Go to original post
    For some odd reason her performance in those modes completely falls under the table and nobody cares. But the truth is ,she is far from balanced when there is more then one Opponent.
    You're talking about Nobushi, right?
    Share this post

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by Draghmar Go to original post
    You're talking about Nobushi, right?
    Yup.

    Edit.: Found the Thread - http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...t=sb.alernakin

    He explains it way better than i could. He is also i belive one of the top players in europe on PC (if that makes any difference to somebody but perhaps it puts some weight to my own arguments/opinion).
    Share this post