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Hello everybody!
First of all: Big thanks to Bully who had all the patience needed to cope with my nosiness
This thread will be dedicated to weapons mechanics, stats and attributs. Theres a lot of things i discovered while intensively researching and id like to share the results.
First im going to cover some game mechanics, so we are all on equal ground when it comes to actually comparing weapons.
1. Stats displayed
This is more of a open secret: The stats displayed reflect not the actual performance of the gun. However, stats are not entirely meaningless. A lvl 30 gun will actually deal more damage than it did on level 1. So what we really see as bars displayed are weapon modifiers. Each weapon has hardcoded stats we cant see, and those are modified by the bars we see. Ill give an example:This is the SRS-A1 (lvl10) compared to the G28(30). The G28 looks a lot better in terms of damage and penetration, so wed expect it to deal more damage, right? Wrong. What we actually see is the modifiers of the SRS which are very low. However, the actual performance per bullet is WAAAY better than the crappy G28 which has by far the worst stats out of all sniper rifles (more on that later), despite its modifiers suggesting it to be a good gun. That is because there are hidden stats we cant see, which are then modified by stats which are displayed to us as the bars in the stats menu. So the actual performance is always a suprise. Stupid system? well, i like that we cant see in second which gun is the best, but the presentation of the modifiers is very deceiving. Im willing to bet that 99,99% of the playerbase took those bars as actual stats and not as modifiers.
Long story short: We cant trust the weapon menus stats, we need to test ourselves. But testing weapons is really not that trivial since theres some game mechanics going on that dramastically change the performance of a gun. So lets adress this first:
2. Crits, Supercrits and headshots.
In ghost recon wildlands theres 3 kinds of crits. Lets cover the most obvious ones:
When you headshot someone, hes instantly dead. With every gun, no matter what. Fairly easy.
So lets go on to supercrits. In wildlands, youll deal different amount of damage depending on your alert level. So if youre completely untedected, your minimap will look picture one:
In this case, your weapons deals multiple times the damage it normally would resulting in a OHK (oneshotkill) with pretty much every rifle. Ill call this a supercrit. The rule of thumb is: The more youre detected, the less damage you deal. Once youre engaged, youll need the most bullet per target. But im pretty sure most people knew about this so lets move to regular crits.
They actually occur when you do fast follow up shots, and deal twice the damage a regular bullet would. So what is a fast follow up shot? You can see it the best if you have an enemy run towards you. If you shoot him, for a brief moment he becomes incapacitated. If you land another shot in this period, its going to be crit. If you still dont know what im talking about, i made a video to demonstrate it
3. Different kind of enemies and how we can reliably test damage
In wildlands, theres a ton of different kind of enemies. You have snipers, soldiers, soldiers with vest, leutnants, heavies, unidad soldier, unidad snipers and unidad heavies. Now my ultimate goal is to have Data for every weapon per enemy, but thats more than just a chore. If you keep in mind the crits mechanics we talked earlier on, theres such a plethora of variables, its a ****ton of work to do. For example the G28 needs 8 individual shots on Santa blanca heavy. But, if you mess it up and shoot to fast youre going to crit and the numbers will be inflated. In addition, as intresting as the numbers would be, theyd barely translate to actual combat. For example if you shoot through cover, those bullets will deal significantly less damage. It also depends on where you hit. A hit into the foot will deal less damage than a hit in the chest. Quantifying weapon damage on actual enemies is really complicated.
So what i did to compare all weapons to the same standart is shooting training dummies: Rebels. Because theres a simple trick: if youre using your flashgrenades on rebels and wait until the effect wears of, theyll enter "combat", are not oneshot anymore and make for aweeesome trainingsdummys. It gets even better, if you call in a distraction, there will be some with a heavy machine gun, and they behave pretty much the same as heavy enemies (the ones with shields)
So lets not waste more time and start diving into it: Remember this is still a work in progress, but theres already some really, really intresting things to note which is why i share it early:
Spreadsheet
So i started with sniper rifles, because the crit mechanics i explained above puts assault rifles really, really close together anyways.
A few things to note:
- What really stands out is how awful the Semi auto sniper rifles are right now.
- The LVOA doesnt deal more damage than comparable ARs. (it has awesome handling though)
- The differences between armoured and unarmoured targets are not linear, it thus seems that penetration does work.
- The SR-25 seems to have more penetration than the Dragunov.
- .338 are in a terrible state in tiermode...
- ...so are 7,62mm :/
- I leveld the Steyr Aug and the SR-3M first for a specific reason: Bullet drop. They are by far the best ARs in that regard, and i highly advice anyone looking for a DMR to take a look on one of these equipped with a range finder and Acog. They have comparable Bullet drop but they deal significantly more damage. Would be nice to have confirmation from ubisoft if this is intended or bug and if sniper rifles balance is a subject to change
- We do not have a .300 winmag or .338 LM semi auto rifle avaible :'(
- I left out the L115, because it has such awful bullet drop that im not going to recommend this gun anyway. Maybe ill level it up once i finished ARs and LMGs
- Its for some reason cut out on the picture, but if you go to the actual document youll can see the rate of fire for bolt action rifles. I shot ten shots and stopped the time, repeated it six times and took the average
- If you want to try something new give the M1891 a look. It has by far the best bullet drop and is thus easy to aim with. Its also capabable of 2 shooting helicopers but not vehicles. This makes it an intesting gun for convoys, because you can make a truck stop with two shots (driver will panick), but you wont destroy it. It also has the best rate of fire out of all bolt actions.
- Theres still bugs in multiplayer that affect silencer and damage. I had a friend join my session and the numbers started to be way off on his end. His gun sounded to me like it would be suppressed but there was no suppressor visible for both of us. He then needed 42 shots to kill a truck with a fully leveld M4. Next try he still needed 28. Then eventually after another relog the numbers have been in line again.
Designated Marksman Rifles - DMRs
I updated the spreadsheet and put some work into DMRs. In addition to the four traditional ones, i also added the Lanza sagrada, a boss weapon dragunov. I also added 3 Assault rifles: "his AK", a boss weapon AK47 that has a 5X scope and does way more damage than a regular AK (!), but also the Steyr Aug and the SR-3m. The reason for the latter two is that they actually have way better bullet drop than all other assault rifles, theyre actually in the ballpark of semi auto sniper rifles if you equip them properly.
The results are really, really interesting. I sorted them by damage per bullet. Mind you that this may not reflect the actual dps, since the for example the steyr needs the same amount of bullets to burst down enemies than the dragunov, but of course the steyr can shoot a lot faster.
What really stands out is how low the damage of the G28 and the Mk14 are. Theyre getting outclassed by Assault rifles, ouch!
Whats also really interesting is that if you factor in burst crits, the Assault rifles are actually in the same ballpark as the most devastating Semi auto sniper rifle.
A special mention goes to HIS AK. This thing really is a beast. It can two shot heavies (!) and is completely en par with the SR-25 in terms of damage per bullet. The only downsides are not beeing able to modify it (so no suppressor) and Bullet drop on regular assault rifle level.
Winner:
Steyr
It really depends on what you like, but for me its the steyr because its an alrounder. It deals toptier dmg, has full auto capability, is modable and has really good bullet drop. On top its listet as AR, so youll definately have enough ammo.
Runner ups:
SR-25
SR-3M
HIS AK
The SR-25 has incredible good damage, astonishing accuracy even on longest range and....well you wont need more. The SR-25 kills. However, since its listed as sniper rifle it wont come with much ammo and the lack of a grenade launcher option will (depending on playstyle) force your second slot to an AR.
The SR-3M is pretty much the same as the Steyr. It has a little bit less range though and deals slightly less damage per bullet. For the latter it makes up with a noticeable higher ROF. It also has by far the best handling out of all DMRs.
His AK. Its the DMR with by far the highest dps, what more do i need to say?
Losers:
G28
MK14
Dragunov
They all share the same problem: Lack of damage. If only they were on SR-25 level, theyd have some use, but as it stands theyre just completely useless in a combat situation. For sure they all work if youre operating undeteced, but so will basically every other weapon. What matters is performance when **** hits the fan, and those just dont do the trick.
The only reason to use them is if youre a hardcore division fan and really used to shoot a full magazine into an enemy.
So again, note that this is still a work in progress project and theres a lot of things to discover and a lot of things i havent explicitly talked about it.
The next steps will be to complete the sniper stats, im excited to see if the srs can oneshot heavies on lvl 30. After that im going to add a Bullet drop chart. I already tested a lot, but i havent quantified the results yet.
Hopefully this reaches out to ubisoft so they see theres people caring about weapons balance and hoping for some adjustments in the future. I think i speak for a large part of the community when i say: We want to have other viable options other than the HTi.
So far
Qwu
P.S.: If any of you want to help me on this project, i gladly take any help.
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@keeba, zuzu, insulin and all
This can take the fans so much work to create, and is really interesting stuff. There will be, I suspect, a variable on which hit box is actually struck on the torso, a little bit (or a lot?) of RNG on damage and also damage drop off with range. As we can't kill each other and we can only test NPCs in a passive state if we hold them and not practical if we're engaged then can the Devs publish or give access to the data? I guess a series of charts?
Symthic do this with the BF series, by mining the data files, and it is something that enhances the experience for those interested.
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Great Project! If I can support you with Data from PS4 let me know (English, German)
I dont know if this is interesting for you or if this belongs to this Thread, but one Thing:
I noticed that the V2 Compensator not only raises the Weapons´ Damage a little as shown on the Bars, but raises it extremely. I always had the Stock Muzzle/Suppressor installed and was very surprised that even Heavy Unidad Guys get downed very easy.
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Didnt have much time due to a wedding, but here are a few updates everybody
1. Boss weapons. Looking at the stats they usually suck compared to the ones you can modify. But we already know stats dont tell the truth right? So i went and took a look at some, and there is some real intresting things. For example "HIS AK-47" (i hope this is the right translation, its the AK with the big scope). It deals about 25% more damage than a regular AK, and although i havent it leveld yet, it can already keep up with the lvl 30 G28 and Mk14. So if youre into fast shooting DMR, you should definately take a look at this one. Same goes for the Lanza Sagrada. I dont have exact numbers yet, but this thing does considerable more damage than the regular Dragunov. However it does not hold true that all boss weapons are better. The "Warhawk" for example deals less damage than its fully modded L115 counterpart.
2. Bolt action sniper Rifles. Ive now leveld them all up to lv 30 and sadly enough none of them is capable of oneshotting all kinds of personal targets with 1 bullet except for the Hti. Looking at the ROF differences, theres some that are considerable faster, but if you factor in that you need twice as many shots for many enemies its hard to justify to not run the Hti.
3. Range stat does not affect the bullet drop of the attached Grenade launcher
4. When leveling a weapon, vehicle damage barely improves. While personal targets require less shots once you level your weapon, for hard targets the number barely improves at all. This is quite intresting!
For Bolt action sniper rifles, im pretty sure aswell that nothing is going to beat the Hti. But theres so many more categoriesOriginally Posted by TF1-UN1TY Go to original postQuite the undertaking! I like it. You have my support. But I will start with the thesis that the D-Tech HTI as the 'Best Weapon" in the game (though I do wonder how your results may differ)
I will follow your progress and chime in as necessary. Curious what your results will be?
Eyes Wide Open...
As for the torso hitbox, i was able to very reliably reproduce my results. For most weapons ive done the tests multiple times, and the results were very consistent.Originally Posted by AI BLUEFOX Go to original post
As for damage dropoff, ive not extensively tested that. But from my long range sniping sessions it definately feels that damage drops off after 500m. Raiding that unidad base the other day, i even needed two body hits with the HTI. HOWEVER, im not entirely sure if thats been pure range. Some smaller penetratable objects dont render on my client after a certain range, so that could have caused the damage drop aswell.
If devs would give us access to the data, that would be really, really cool. Although id probably spend much less time in the game then, lol.
Im on PC, but any help is still apprecciated. Theres a lot of empty cells in that spreadsheetOriginally Posted by KingSpawn1979 Go to original post
As for the V2 compensator, i wasnt able to reproduce that. Which weapon did you use? Or is it possible that due the way better handling of the V2, you hit more shots?
Im glad this is apprecciated by both, the community and ubiOriginally Posted by Ubi-Iudex Go to original postThis is awesome, Qwurdi! Great to see the resounding support for this from everyone as well. Very much looking forward to seeing your end results on this project.
Will be getting the team's eyes all over this, that's for sure.
Havent had a look at shootguns yet. My average kill distance is 138m, so shotguns are not exactly my kind of playstyle ;POriginally Posted by jsocfrog Go to original post
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Good job - agree - semi auto rifles are terrible - this part why so many people are screaming for the BFG-50A from FG to be in the main game.
Personally I hate the LVOA bad news you get at tier 5 - sights are horribly obscured with the optic up and I personally do not like its handling, though it seems to do decent damage and will trash vehicles. I might have used it if I could have replaced the optic on it.
When I first got the TAR-21 I used to use that until I got the MK-17, then eventually switched back to the TAR-21 as I never really liked the MK-17 outside one-shot use - TAR-21 has always been my favourite AR - great handling (easy to keep on target if you have to go full auto, and i just seem to line up a shot much quicker with it), decent damage due to rate of fire, has 50 - round mag, can stick a decent optic on it etc and at level 30 / tier < 5 I have no problem trashing vehicles and helos with it if I absolutely need to.
For an AR - this to me is the real 'hidden' aspect - regardless of stats, which weapon can you bring on target accurately enough and kill with quickly enough and which can on you keep on target if you have to go full auto in a reasonable engagement range? Which can land all 3 round of a 3 round burst? Which has handing that lets you fire another burst on target the quickest? etc. For some of that - it can simply be personal preference about which interacts with your controller/mouse the best for you (unless the damage is so bad as to make the rest moot of course).
From stats, the LVOA bad news *should* be much better than the TAR-21, and yet in practice I kill much quicker and dependably with the TAR-21 over any typical engagement range.
Of course tier 1 mode negates much of the above - if you are in fast-reaction situations in tier 1 mode, especially at low tiers (<10), you are probably already dead due to aim bot/wall hack nature of it, but I do sometimes manage to react to a hidden enemy and turn and kill it even at my current tier 2 just before it manages to kill me. (How the hell I miss seeing it after carefully examining everything is a separate discussion that makes me wonder if the is some enemy loading bug in play).
Your data on other sniper rifles is kind of interesting as a one shot option for reducing convoy trucks to half half to instantly stop them.
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Couldnt agree more, this really is the most important thing of an assault rifle. Thats why many love the M4. Toptier dps plus magnificent handling. In addition to handling, imho the bullet drop becomes an important factor too in tiermode since you always want to keep them in range. Thats why im currently running the Steyr. It has the least Bullet drop, and its kick is actually perfect for my aim, since it kicks the right amount so 90% of the time one of the bullets will be a headshot. But this is very individual experience, so as far as i can tell for now, when it comes to ARs, its 95% personal preference. I think this is a very good thing, because thats the way it works in RL too!Originally Posted by KG_Khazul Go to original post
However i disagree with the desing decision to make the MK-17 have such a huge bullet drop. Id love to see its bullet drop in the ballpark of the mk14/sr25, which would be very reasonable since they use the same caliber.
As for damage in assault rifles, i found something very intresting. For santa blanca heavies (i wasnt able to test if it holds true for unidad heavies aswell), the MK-17 needs less individual bullets but doesnt deal more damage when it comes to burst mode. The MK-17 needs only 4 bullets compared to 5 for a lot of others, but given the way Burst mechanic with follow up shots works, they all need 3 Bullets. I wouldnt argue this renders the mk17 useless though, it still has awesome handling on long range, and on >250m you cant always guarantue follow up shots anyway.
Edit: I disagree a little bit on the BFG-50 though. While its certainly an amazing platform, its overkill for the most part. Ill just post some data provided by a former spec ops sniper who worked at Cheytac:
At 2000 yards, the flight time for a 750 gr. AMAX* out of a .50 and flight time is 3.6 seconds. Velocity at 2000 yards for the AMAX is 1153 fps, just barely supersonic. This means the projectile at 2000 yards moves about 3.8” for every 1 millisecond of time and range.
At 2000 yards, the flight time for a 338 Lapua at 2900 fps (their best speed) and the flight time is 3.4 seconds. Velocity at 2000 yards for the 270 gr. LRBT J40 round is 1159 fps, also, just barely supersonic. This means the projectile at 2000 yards moves about 4.1” for every 1 millisecond of time and range.
*The 750gr. AMAX is one of the best rounds avaible for .50 sniper
As you can see, theyre both supersonic out to 2000yards, and apart from some lucky shots, youre not going to engage personel targets further away. Also they have both energy to rip people apart. A kill is a kill, right? So theres no real advantage provided by the .50 cal.
Also this statement from Chris Kyle, seal team 3 sniper: “Everyone says that the .50 is a perfect anti-vehicle gun. But the truth is that if you shoot the .50 through a vehicle’s engine block, you’re not actually going to stop the vehicle. Not right away. The fluids will leak out and eventually it will stop moving. But it’s not instant by any means. A .338 or even a .300 will do the same thing. No, the best way to stop a vehicle is to shoot the driver. And that you can do with a number of weapons.”
So actually, theres a lot of romance for the .50 cal, but when it comes to real world use, besides shooting real big targets with the raufoss round (which has way worse ballistics than an AMAX), there is no real advantage over a properly equipped .338 Lapua Magnum. Thats why most specc op snipers use the .338LM or .300 winmag depending on mission. So if i could choose, id take a AR based .338LM semi auto or even a .300 winmag over a .50 BFG any day.
Just look at this beauty - Sword international Mk-18 Mod1:
http://cdn0.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp...78-900x352.jpg
its also avaible with an OSS suppressor <3 :
https://img.youtube.com/vi/zuTQlT_NRUs/hqdefault.jpg
http://blog.uspatriottactical.com/wp...85-300x225.jpg
Or the Alexander Arms Ulfberht, rifle of the year 2015. Awesome precision and reliability and weigh about the half as a .50 semi.
The only downside is that the ammo is super expensive. But since this is a pc game and i dont have to care about reloading costs, please give one of these ubi
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Designated Marksman Rifles - DMRs
I updated the spreadsheet and put some work into DMRs. In addition to the four traditional ones, i also added the Lanza sagrada, a boss weapon dragunov. I also added 3 Assault rifles: "his AK", a boss weapon AK47 that has a 5X scope and does way more damage than a regular AK (!), but also the Steyr Aug and the SR-3m. The reason for the latter two is that they actually have way better bullet drop than all other assault rifles, theyre actually in the ballpark of semi auto sniper rifles if you equip them properly.
The results are really, really interesting. I sorted them by damage per bullet. Mind you that this may not reflect the actual dps, since the for example the steyr needs the same amount of bullets to burst down enemies than the dragunov, but of course the steyr can shoot a lot faster.
What really stands out is how low the damage of the G28 and the Mk14 are. Theyre getting outclassed by Assault rifles, ouch!
Whats also really interesting is that if you factor in burst crits, the Assault rifles are actually in the same ballpark as the most devastating Semi auto sniper rifle.
A special mention goes to HIS AK. This thing really is a beast. It can two shot heavies (!) and is completely en par with the SR-25 in terms of damage per bullet. The only downsides are not beeing able to modify it (so no suppressor) and Bullet drop on regular assault rifle level.
Chart
Winner:
Steyr
It really depends on what you like, but for me its the steyr because its an alrounder. It deals toptier dmg, has full auto capability, is modable and has really good bullet drop. On top its listet as AR, so youll definately have enough ammo.
Runner ups:
SR-25
SR-3M
HIS AK
The SR-25 has incredible good damage, astonishing accuracy even on longest range and....well you wont need more. The SR-25 kills. However, since its listed as sniper rifle it wont come with much ammo and the lack of a grenade launcher option will (depending on playstyle) force your second slot to an AR.
The SR-3M is pretty much the same as the Steyr. It has a little bit less range though and deals slightly less damage per bullet. For the latter it makes up with a noticeable higher ROF. It also has by far the best handling out of all DMRs.
His AK. Its the DMR with by far the highest dps, what more do i need to say?
Losers:
G28
MK14
Dragunov
They all share the same problem: Lack of damage. If only they were on SR-25 level, theyd have some use, but as it stands theyre just completely useless in a combat situation. For sure they all work if youre operating undeteced, but so will basically every other weapon. What matters is performance when **** hits the fan, and those just dont do the trick.
The only reason to use them is if youre a hardcore division fan and really used to shoot a full magazine into an enemy.
It absolutely boggles my mind why especially the G28 is that bad. I understand the fully auto capable Mk-14 does less damage, although it shouldnt be lower than Assault rifles. But the G28 is really astonishing bad. In real life its performing pretty much the same as the SR-25, and earlier this year it was actually anounced that a variation of this rifle will actually replace the SR-25 in the US military
I still keeps my hopes up theyll release a DMR DLC with some new neat Semi auto sniper rifles chambered in .300 winmag or .338 lapua magnum, then damage wont be an issue
Well thats it for DMRs today, see ya
