why i'm so against parry reward nerfs | Forums

[nyrue]

I've been posting a lot lately largely in the minority that nerfing parry rewards imo is a bad idea, but maybe I have haven't explained my reasoning well enough so I will attempt too do so once again

I don't believe parry is the real heart of the def meta, on the surface yes parrying is very rewarding, in some cases its not even hard too do, but it is arguably the most skill based mechanic that exists in this game, and therefore should be the most rewarding, but I digress, chip damage is at the heart of the defensive meta something ubisoft seems too fully realize, chip damage is the incentive to not simply block everything it is the punish too passive def, parry is active def, I think we can all agree we would rather fight someone playing active def than passive. what I don't realize is why ubisoft and the community is pushing so hard for parry nerfs when we haven't even gotten to really test out the coming chip damage changes on their own, I believe all the changes introduced in the PTS were mostly unnecessarily shift the balance of Defense and Offense too far into the favor of offense, it is a fact that most fighting games put a heavy emphasis on defense, and the number 1 reason I don't want too see nerfs too parry like the ones that I saw in the PTS2, is because it absolutely destroys any chance you have as a player too take on multiple attackers, too me the two biggest problems in this game are gank, and turtling and both of these things are very much connected, too fix one with out breaking another you have too make changes that are innocuous too one another, that said I believe there is another way too affect change without nerfing parry rewards and that is feint

feint and chip damage are very much connected too eachother, chip is the punish too passive defense, and feint is the punish too active defense, and one of the keys to making a good balanced fighting game is that risk must match reward, and I would agree with anyone that said parrying isn't risky, but I believe some effective reworks too feint could easily remedy that combined with some smart implementations of chip damage and this would essentially remove overly defensive play as a viable strategy without destroying the balance between offense and defense,

chip damage, I like 18% its a good number I can find no flaw in the reasoning, but there are somethings I would really like the devs too be aware of before they implements such changes, first I believe you should only receive full chip damage from the opponent you are currently locked onto, chip damage from other sources should at the very least be reduced, second I believe you should further increase chip damage another 4-7% on out of stamina opponents, I think this is a nice alternative too the not being able too parry change introduced in the latest PTS. lastly I believe feinting should be able too kill, I ran into a few matches in the PTS where my opponent would get too that last bar and attempt too stall me out for as long as possible it was very irritating

feinting, feinting is the punish too parry but I don't believe it is working as intended, most people have been getting away with feint into GB punishing slower characters on heavy start up but with normalized heavy start up coming soon (I hope) this does leave a bit a of problem and that is how too punish a failed parry.

I believe this can be done in two ways

1 narrow the feint input window too start up, lets say 100ms or less, that way it is more difficult too feint in response too another players feint. this of course would need a rework too the feint animation because as it is now, a late feint is a convincing one, so you would need too in a sense normalize feints across all characters

2. separate feint and parry, I believe this is probably the most effective way too rehaul feinting but it would probably require the most change too accomplish

so essentially you must change the parry button so it is no longer on the same button as heavy (feint), you could do this most simply by making light attacks the new parry, while feint remains with heavy attack, or you could do the reverse but this would virtually eliminate the ability too recover from failed parry, again you would need too rework the frames maybe increase feint recovery times too match that of a light parry but I believe it is doable


if you read all that I commend you I've said my peace thnx

[Knight_Raime]

I can't really say I agree.
If we look at chip alone that's not going to do anything to someone who chooses to parry.
Parry is an issue because of a few reasons. It currently lets people avoid being punished in OOS.
It currently enables several characters massive damage.
and it's just too easy to accomplish for the kind of rewards it currently gives.

You are correct that for honor was originally designed around being a more defensive/reactionary game. Compared to other fighters anyway.
The problem though is that hero design is rather simplistic. and so is the overall design of the game. There really isn't any direct way to deal with someone who chooses to play passively/reactive in for honor. So instead of basically creating a brand new game it's easier (and imo) more beneficial to tackle parry itself and how rewarding it is.

Chip damage only works for those who block more than parry. and because it's not a solution to parrying it can't be seen as a fix by itself. By the devs making the overall reward not only less but the same for both light and heavy the devs have made parrying important and also not important. it allows players to make a mistake but not feel scared to get back in and try again. and it means anyone can attempt a parry. even lower skilled players. and still potentially get something from it. I don't feel like these changes were aimed at removing parrying. or did that. At best it means people need to expand their knowledge of their kit and match ups in order to learn how to get in other ways. at worst we see parries less often.

They could easily tweak the chip damage value numbers on a sliding scale based on how many people are engaging you. their recent changes to revenge proved that's possible.

They already fixed the failed parry cover ups in this PTR by not letting your defense be active immediately and by not being able to GB immediately after you feint. Feinting imo being on a seperate button while it forces people to commit it also lessens the variety of feinting. You'd have to set it to a specific move and direction. which would make it too predictable. For instance. Orochi can feint his heavy. or his storm rush. if you force feinting onto a button he'd only be able to do one of those.

If we're to make feinting "better" we need to let feinting itself cost less stamina. and either let feinting be possible on both lights and heavies for all the characters. OR let everyone be able to soft feint their zone. and soft feint a single attack into a GB. Soft feints add more depth to the game. and were only mostly removed because they were exploits and not proper built mechanics. they admitted they would bring in soft feints as an actual mechanic at some point if they felt it would be a good thing for the game.

[nyrue]

but what about 4v4 modes and brawl, I mean how can you possibly hope too take on multiple attackers if the only damage you can get out are light attacks?

[T_Sesh]

but what about 4v4 modes and brawl, I mean how can you possibly hope too take on multiple attackers if the only damage you can get out are light attacks?

Revenge, just like you would now. In the PTS at least, revenge was such that made it also made you unparryable, which meant that characters with unblockables, like the raider, could be monsters while in revenge. Other characters would likely need simply to use more of their kit than just parry - although I believe parries while in revenge still knock opponents down, so still very viable there. Maybe not the best solution, hard to say, but thats what the public tests are for.

[nyrue]

I don't think buffing revenge is the answer theres no real skill in it, yeah i'm sure revenge could use some fine tuning here and there but, over all the only things I liked about the PTS (for those that did not read my OP) were chip damage and no more GB on heavy start up, the other changes actually scare the hell out of me that, that is what this game is going too become

[AzureSky.]

Feint is useless in the new patch, only character that have a fast light + medium speed heavy that have a similar animation on the reciever end get a use. like orochi top heavy feint into light.

Feint was used to open up people, after a heavy feint you did a guard break in the start frames of the enemy attack, but they reduced that gap to only 100ms so now its useless.


The fix parry needed (and most clearly HEAVY) was a reduced parry frames for the last part, so its not that easy to do as live version or PTR version, everyone can do a heavy parry, it should be a medium - hard thing to do, not common.

[nyrue]

The fix parry needed (and most clearly HEAVY) was a reduced parry frames for the last part, so its not that easy to do as live version or PTR version, everyone can do a heavy parry, it should be a medium - hard thing to do, not common.

what?

[Knight_Raime]

but what about 4v4 modes and brawl, I mean how can you possibly hope too take on multiple attackers if the only damage you can get out are light attacks?

Both on live and ptr your main method of fending off multiple attackers was revenge mode.
Only difference is on live some heros have insane parry punishes that delete people.
OOS punishes as far as I know more or less still exist post PTR.