🛈 Announcement
Greetings! The Division forums are now archived and accessible in read-only mode, please go to the new platform to discuss the game
  1. #1

    RNGambling introduced into Update 1.7 is bad for the community and the game.

    I have been collecting my thoughts on this subject every since I started participating in the PC PTS for Update 1.7 and it has really been eating at my conscious ever since I saw it introduced. For those of you who don't know, for Update 1.7, the vanity/emote vendor will now offer Encrypted Caches for sale that require you to use a Cipher Key in order to activate and open. These Cipher Keys can be obtained in rare pickups while completing missions or for purchase with real world money much the same as Premium Credits. However, what really differentiates these new Encrypted Caches from every other item at this vendor is that you cannot actually see what you are purchasing until you spend the Cipher Key and unlock the cache. Once opened, it goes through a cool animation where the 3 "randomized" items reveal themselves and you essentially found out what new vanity items you just received.

    The entire issue with this new monetization concept is that it is gambling! Spending keys for randomized loot is just like dropping a quarter into a slot machine in Vegas and hoping you hit it big. And here are the problems I have with RNGambling being introduced into our beloved game:

    1) There is no checks/balances to ensure our transactions are protected against a rigged system. No loot drop % chart has been published showing the potential odds to win any of these items for these Encrypted Caches. Who's to say that one item has a 50% chance of showing up while another, extremely rare item, has a .01% of being looted? Nobody knows and therefore the "integrity" of this system is in question. Even slot machines have to post, in close proximity, a board disclosing your odds of winning.
    2) There is absolutely no disclosure or posting of the potential loot that you can obtain through these caches. At the premium vendor, I can view and even preview each specific vanity item on my agent and make an informed decision as to which items I would like to purchase. There is nothing like this for these encrypted caches as it is just all left up to the RNG system. And we all know how frustrating and dare I say "unfair" that system seems to be. Can you translate how many hours it took you to finally loot Barrett's Bulletproof Vest or the MDR the first time, and turn that into a dollar amount? Can you imagine somebody with no self control spending hundreds of dollars opening these completely randomized caches chasing after a specific vanity item like a set of headphones, jacket or weapon skin?
    3) As you start to open more and more of these caches, your odds of getting an item that you don't already have go down exponentially until you have a better chance of hitting the Lottery than getting that last vanity item for your collection.

    Now, I am not just going to sit behind my keyboard and complain, but rather will offer my suggestions to at least put this on the level.

    1) An icon disclosing the "primary" vanity item in each Encrypted Cache should be displayed on the front of each cache. If I want a specific pair of pants, I need only find the specific cache with that icon and name and purchase it. The animations can still be the same and once opened will reveal my selected vanity item and two, randomized vanity items can appear as well. This way, the person purchasing the vanity item can specifically target a desired item instead of endlessly being taken advantage of by the RNG loot system.
    2) Produce a chart with loot drop percentages for these Encrypted Caches so we can see what the proposed drop rates were/are to be. Casinos have to disclose this and I feel strongly that this type of monetization system in The Division should as well. This is gambling, maybe not in the traditional form that you are used to seeing, but it is gambling just the same.
    3) There needs to be a disclosure in the UI or UPlay interface disclosing this type of monetization system for what it is. More than just "must obtain parents/guardian permission." A person/people need to understand what this system is and what it does with as little legal jargon as possible.
    4) If my first suggestion of disclosing what the "primary" vanity item in each cache does not work for the dev team, then try this: Only make Cipher Keys obtainable through the completion of Daily Missions and the Global Events. Move the "rarest" vanity items to these special caches that can only be opened by Cipher Keys obtained through missions, not through purchasing them with real money. Move the rest of the loot table, which includes the most common vanity items into a separate class that can be opened with Cipher Keys obtained either through mission pickups OR purchasing them through the UPlay store. A full disclosure needs to be made as to where each item can be found so as to not take advantage of the player base.

    I could keep going on and on, but somebody needed to do something about this troubling subject. RNGambling micro-transactions being introduced into our game, at this late date, clearly shows the greed and lack of morality that has overwhelmed certain portions of the dev team. And before you say something like "It's only vanity items", or "People should be held accountable for their purchases" you only need to be around somebody that has had their lives destroyed by the addiction of gambling. I personally have no problems controlling myself for spending real world money at the Premium Vendor, but there are many out there that do. It starts off so small and simple, and pretty soon, somebody has no money left because they were chasing a stupid vanity item that has absolutely no bearing on their agents abilities or skills. There are rules and regulations for gambling around the world, but this realm of virtual RNGambling seems to be allowed to infest games unchecked and unregulated.

    I simply ask for your feedback and to keep your comments civil. I started a discussion and poll over on Twitter and it has been gaining a lot of attention and constructive feedback. I look forward to your responses.

    Since I posted this original post and subsequent perma-ban and reinstatement the following has happened:

    1) a public petition to stop this madness for Update 1.7 has been created and I would appreciate your support, here is the link: https://gopetition.com/petitions/mas...-division.html

    2) I posted a full YouTube video to my channel outlining my thoughts and concerns along with remedies and encourage you to watch and comment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK61Vkx-SuI

    Edit - Since posting this original post, the Dev. Team has reached out to me for alternate ides for this monetized Encrypted Cache system. Today, I posted a follow up YouTube video and it serves as a point by point response to that question. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy1IblaTiZE

    LtBuzzLitebeer
     57 people found this helpful
    Share this post

  2. #2
    x21KilotonX's Avatar Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Wormwood Scrubs
    Posts
    457
    ...if there was ever a post that should be moved INTO the General Discussion forum, then this is it.

    I think this is a spectacular opportunity for Ubisoft to demonstrate its commitment to the players, by canning this entirely bogus plan.

    Or, they could demonstrate their absolute contempt for us, by introducing gambling for kids.

    Just because other companies pull this stunt doesn't make it ok. It's a gambling minigame ffs, everyone involved should feel ashamed of themselves.


    I think the post Buzz made sums the situation up perfectly, and credit to him for objecting to this fiasco.
     19 people found this helpful
    Share this post

  3. #3
    THEaquemeni's Avatar Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Philly
    Posts
    76
    Buzz - Let me first say thank you for clearing spelling out your concerns and sharing them with us. ALso thank you for having the courage to stand up for what you believe in. As you will read below, i do not agree, but i completely respect your opinion.

    From a gambling perspective I feel we gamble our time for gear daily, and we have no clue of the winnings percentages.
    So is time worth more than money? Let’s keep digging.
    From your point, I feel we could either buy the Encrypted caches or buy the items individually (if youre online when available).
    I feel if we had to buy necessary gear with cash, then we should know our chances (I feel like Warframe should be mentioned here?).
    But since Encrypted Caches are strictly vanity I cant quantify the effort of adding more complexity to it.
    I feel if there is an issue the community has, Encrypted Caches would get removed not invested deeper into.

    Correct me if im wrong, but it seems all you would need to satisfy your concern is a clear understanding of your drop chances with an Encrypted Cache? If so, let’s ask for it.

    To clear up this grey area, casinos have a chance of providing monetary income. You can win, take that money, and actually buy something with your earnings.
    But due to the fact we dont own the game, we are only licensed to use the game, I dont believe the same rules apply as there is not monetary income.

    For example:
    If i was to count cards, a casino would still have to pay me out. I may no longer be permitted to play since gambling is a privilege, not a right.
    But lets say I spent $3k on Cypher keys, and I was also a hacker that just happened to get banned. Ubisoft would have no responsibility of paying me back that money.

    The sheer fact we dont have to purchase these keys and it’s strictly vanity items really protects the game from not being a Pay2Win..

    But in closing I believe Ubisoft’s last earnings meeting, they stated they were moving away from paid DLC model because it is not fair to the consumer to conitusouly pay for a game that is still under development (as they collect mass data from community). So it seems like they will be aiming to make additional money off of vanity items. But your argument about addiction is relative to every single game that offers paid additional content. I feel Ubisoft is taking an extremely active approach in dodging a Pay2Win model. While some other companies out there seem to have no shame #UltimateTeam.

    #2cents #madLOVE

    aquemeni
     3 people found this helpful
    Share this post

  4. #4
    Thank you kindly good sir!
     2 people found this helpful
    Share this post

  5. #5
    Gambling for kids. I've said it before.
    It's deplorable at best.

    This is real money and carries real world consequences.
    It feeds and maybe even creates gambling addictions.
     10 people found this helpful
    Share this post

  6. #6
    Very true in that we are not profiting from this type of model, but at its heart it is still gambling. The definition of gambling is as follows: the activity or practice of playing at a game of chance for money or other stakes. Dropping coins into a slot machine or buying Cipher Keys to open Encrypted Caches will both yield you the same net result; loot. As I mentioned, if the design was altered in that I could actively see and target a specific vanity item I desired and then purchase it with two additional items being revealed in the cache as "gravy," I would not have an issue. But simply designing a loot system that can be activated by purchasing keys with real world cash and then predicating the loot drops on RNG is insane. Who setup this system? Are the odds of getting a specific loot item standardized across the board are do they differ for specific vanity items? What guarantee is there that a dev. will not have "backdoor" access to manipulate the odds of looting specific items once they get real data on the loot drops? At least gaming machines have a tapped seal confirming that the machine has not been tampered with by a gaming commission with real authority to prosecute any party that has actively tampered with them. We have no guarantees with this system and a person could literally spend hundreds of dollars chasing one specific vanity item and still not loot it from one of these caches. I personally have no problems with self control, but there are plenty of people out there that literally get hooked on this type of RNGambling and totally lose control. I would leave The Division if we ever went Pay2Win and I am glad we have not veered down that dark path, but this is close. Licensed or not, owned or not, Ubisoft has a responsibility to monitor these type of micro-transactions and to do the right thing. I will actively push for transparency in this matter as we, the player base, deserve to see the truth and not be told "It's completely based on RNG."
    As always, I respect and appreciate your opinions and look forward to speaking with you in the future!
     6 people found this helpful
    Share this post

  7. #7
    Very true and thank you for commenting. This new monetization model needs transparency for loot selections or it needs to be modified to only accept Cipher Keys obtained as Mission Rewards. No restrictions or regulations can lead to players of all ages losing large amounts of money getting addicted to that loot cache animation sequence only to be disappointed over and over again.

    Originally Posted by mckrackin5324 Go to original post
    Gambling for kids. I've said it before.
    It's deplorable at best.

    This is real money and carries real world consequences.
    It feeds and maybe even creates gambling addictions.
     7 people found this helpful
    Share this post

  8. #8
    tph1976's Avatar Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    1,099
    While I find your post interesting if not very confusing on your position.I would like to say this...and correct me when I completely misunderstood your arguments.

    You bought this game because you wanted to play it. You are not "gambling" your time but you are spending your time on playing the game you bought regardless of you wanting to get that one item with an RNG drop rate or that one piece of perfect gear. This is decidedly and fundamentally different from participating in an activity specifically designed to give you a random chance at an item for repeated investments of real world money. One doesn't fit the definition of gambling...at all...and the other actually does fit that definition. This should not need to be explained.

    The question we have is whether it is okay for a game industry to employ gambling freely and without any form of oversight and regulation to an underage audience (which is illegal in most of the western world) because it doesn't meet the standards of the legal definition of gambling to be considered as such. It is very important to realize that that is the case because the legal system has not yet caught up with the digital age and doesn't really consider digital game items to have a monetary value. This has nothing to do with licenses or us owning the game. That said...there is increasing legislation, for example the recent CS:GO lotto scandal, that indicate that we, in the future,very well might see more regulation and more legislation.

    It also has very little to do with the game being p2w or not. It doesn't matter if they are vanity items or top tier weapons or armor...because the morality and ethics behind it do not change. It also isn't a question of "can they" but a question of "is this morally and ethically right".

    I think that that question should be answered with a resounding "no". This isn't moral. It isn't ethical. It is a money scam that artificially creates worth to increase revenue beyond what the revenue could be for a fixed price investment vs worth model. Because that is what paid DLC actually is...we pay a fixed one time price for a certain amount of content. Whether you agree with that price or not...it is a one time deal and it is always the same for everybody for that content.

    The argument to move away from paid DLC has nothing to do with "fairness" to the customer. This is an absolutely laughable argument in an industry that has consistently proved they have very little care or concern for customers....certainly when it is coming from a company as Ubisoft which has actively pursued the, arguably, most customer unfriendly policies in the industry to favor their bottom line. What it does have everything to do with is the bottom line. Instead of getting $30 for a large chunk of content they can now get ten times that amount for a few bits of texture that probably took 10-20 minutes to make in an editing tool. So this isn't a question of creating an alternative revenue stream to finance additional development...it is a ploy to find a way to make that development even more profitable and allow these companies to later argue that the sliver of content in the DLC is actually something we get for free and therefor doesn't need to be substantial. Because we have all seen that happen already.
     5 people found this helpful
    Share this post

  9. #9
    THEaquemeni's Avatar Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Philly
    Posts
    76
    Ok we are touching on a sensitive subject, so my apologies if i offend anyone with what im about to say...

    I see a lot of people talking about “gambling for kids”.
    Where do the kids get the money to gamble? Are they stealing it from their parents? Are they mowing lawns?
    I dont feel like a game that is rated “MATURE” should have these worries.
    If this game was rated “TEEN” or “EVERYONE” we could use this argument of promoting a lifestyle that children dont yet have access to.
    I dont want to point a finger here, but I think parents should own the accountability for what their kids play, and how they play it.
    This is usually gets identified in conversations where parents ask their children “what do you need the money for?”
    Gaming companies do however play a role in this, but i feel the safe guards are in place to protect the company. Which is why they use the rating systems.
    However, I think this would be a great identifier for a class action lawsuit. Let’s find some companies that encourage this type of gambling within their games that do not have a “MATURE” rating.
     4 people found this helpful
    Share this post

  10. #10
    Forget the term "gambling for kids."

    Let's talk investment. Just to share a bit of personal information. I am no millionaire, yet, but I do manage to make 6 figures by investing smartly either with my money or with my time. Because I do this, it allots me the fun of my leisure time which is to play video games, go surfing, go fishing, spend days on the beach, you get the picture. If I gambled, not invested, my money, I would not be able to do these things, because there is only one winner in gambling, the House. The house always wins.

    That being said, I will never pay money for a micro-transaction in which I do not know what product I am buying. It won't happen. Smart people don't do these things. Successful people don't do these things.

    However, I would actually pay a subscription to Massive for The Division in return for services rendered of which I know exactly what I am paying for.

    You see, what gaming companies found out is this: people are stupid, and they are extremely stupid with their money. People complained about subscription based games, so what companies did were force microtransactions and DLCs on you in which they actually entice, I won't use force, the gamer into spending more than they would, for less in return after already charging an arm and a leg for the game itself. I only bought the Division on sale, because $70 for a PC game is entirely too much, especially when it isn't a complete game.
     4 people found this helpful
    Share this post

Page 1 of 21 12311 ... Last ►►