How to break the defensive meta by breaking the game in 6 points. | Forums

[Sarhaed]

Greetings, Warriors

I wanted to share with you these ideas. They may seem a bit radical and I don't think they will please some of you but well... I don't think For Honor can advance without some boldness regarding how it plays.

My ideas are built around these statements :

-The defensive meta exists because offense is easily punished by parries, blocking, and the many free damage these moves allow.
-The only moves that bypass the defensive meta are : the unblockable « turtle breakers » (warlord headbutt, LB shove...), or light attacks that are fast enough (PK lights...). This creates frustration, and these moves seem overpowered, because they are not impacted by the overwhelming meta. Spamming them seem the only way to win some matches, and dictates who is top tier and who is not.
-Free Guard Breaks are a problem, especially when a guard break you can't counter can lead to your death. It seems cheap and encourages you to stay passive, when the game should be more active.
-To be effective and easily implemented, balance changes must NOT need new animations that need much more time to be conceived. My ideas are organized with that idea in mind.

Well, here are the changes :

1) Give every character 50% more hp

This is important for the following changes. Burning the defensive meta to the ground can lead to an excessive reduction of the average time to kill an opponent, so this could allow more space to experiment things during a duel.

2) Get rid of the direction indicators of the UI.

Hear me out : we don't need them. At all. They are one of the only reasons why zone flicker is a problem, and the reason why parries are so easy to do.
If you played the story mode in realism, you also know that it is not that big of a deal. Your muscle memory is here to help you, and every other fighting game doesn't have such thing.

The only exceptions are : when someone you are not targeting is attacking you, or when someone tries to kill you by jumping on you.

Pros :
-Rewards observation and anticipation over UI reaction.
-Less telegraphed attacks means more offensive options.
-Better esthetics overall
-Sharper learning curve

Cons :
-Sharper learning curve (it can be a problem, especially when the game must be balanced at high and low level)
-Some attack animations are more telegraphed than others, leading to more balancing issues (some classes animations are more obvious etc)

3) Nerf blocking. A LOT.

Blocking is one of the easiest manoeuver in the game. It's sometimes rewarding as hell (free GB on light attacks), and not punishable at all. Let's change that.
-You now take 50% of the attack damage by blocking it, and it doesn't cancel combo chains on light attacks block. The only exception being when someone you are not targeting hits you while on combat state.

Pros :
-Give a mean to reduce damage taken, without being near invincible.
-Buff the utility of combo chains, and encourages mixups.
-Increases the pressure on the defender, making this solution viable only temporarily

Cons :
-Can increase spammer plays at low level.

4) Create a new type of block, the Reflex block.

This one is pretty simple : to get a reflex block, you need to change your guard direction at the moment the blow hits you. It blocks 90% of the damage but drains a bit of your stamina. Overall, reflex block works the same way as the old normal block (If the attack was a light attack, it cancels the chain, etc). Of course, this mean you can't « reflex block » two times in the same direction, creating more mindgames options, and buffing every single combo chain in the game. And you can't reflex block when out of stamina.

Pros:
-Gives you a chance to negate most of the damage taken, based on skill and reflex.
-Gives you a chance to end combo chains if used right.
-Makes defense harder and more skill based.
-Improves mindgames possibilities when attacking : you can do a full combo in one direction to be sure your opponent wont « reflex block » one of your attacks, but it leaves you predictable and open to a parry. Or you can continue your mixups and allow your opponent to switch guard and therefore perfect block your combo
-Makes effective turtling impossible when out of stamina.

Cons :
-Can increase the utility of spamming attacks at low level.


5) Nerf projection distance.

This one is pretty simple : your throw range now depends on the defender's health percentage. The goal is to limit cheesy environnemental kills at the beginning of duels, and making it impossible if you didn't at least try to weaken the opponent beforehand.

6) Create a vulnerable state to punish whiffed guard breaks

This one is a pretty personnal one. I think Guard breaks should be a way to counter defense, or punish your opponent. It shouldn't be a safe way to just grab him and kill him in one throw or get free damage. Your character is vulnerable, his guard down, and GB should be a risky move, as it would be in a real fight, especially with characters using their BARE HANDS in front of a capable opponent.
The idea is simple : if you are hit while doing a guard break animation, you take 25% more damage.

Pros :
-Limits the amount of GB you see in a match, focusing on swordplay with blocks/parries instead of grappling.
-Doesn't nerf the utility of the GB, but increases risks of using it recklessly.



Well, that's it for today. I know these are pretty big changes, but I think they could be useful to change the overall pace of the game. We need more agression, more dynamic encounters, and I think these changes can achieve that.

[Gemoroda]

After reading 3 TIMES your "6 point breaking defensive meta", even tho maibe many players wont agree for what reasons i dont know, i honestly say that the high possibility that the devs won't take any of the ideas in consideration makes me sad.
I agree with every bit of information you taught of (except the fact that I didn't saw or maybe I didn't understand why didn't you add the idea of removing the free GB after a parry. if you did my bad).
What I actually wanted to talk about from you 6 point theory was point 2: Get rid of the direction indicators of the UI. In my opinion too I think that this move (Wich it's actually pretty simple to do) will make the fights more dynamic rather than just react to a red arrow on the screen.
The only addition to this would be to the new players, in the way that it would be a preety awesome move from the devs to do it so that the reticle exist in fights, on every character, until certain character reaches prestige 1. By then i think players would have a pretty good ideea how the moves in the game work, so that the removal of the direction indicators wont be that mutch of a problem.

But again, I actually wanted to open a thread about point 2 a little while ago, but changed my mind based on what I taught peoples reaction would be to that idea.
Being as I think point 2 it's a simple management of the game, I support the ideea completely and hope they will implement it as soon as possible.

Great thinking. Let's hope for the best!

[ChampionRuby50g]

While I can agree with some of your points, I've got to say 100% no on point 2 and point 3 where it says lights continue into chain. This is extremely overpowered, and add that with point 2 compounds it by 10. There should not be a free guard break after blocking a light but allowing them to continue is already the wrong way to go about it. There's a reason blocking lights stop chains.

1. It will open the way up to light spamming, as you mentioned. And this is already a major problem for some heroes. You where wrong about the low levels spamming this. Every level of skill will start doing this because it's simply going to be the easiest way to win. I have a rep 16 Valk, and to low level players they struggle immensely to dodge or stop the spear sweep. Now imagine if there was no fight UI and Valks lights didn't stop on block. You will see a far higher amount of people complaining.

2. This is vastly overpowered in favour of assassin classes. We already know how quick the PK/Shinobis lights are, and they have chains in this. PK light spam will become ridiculous, PK cancelling zone into light will now be impossible to defend against. They can be defended against with the UI, but without I can't see it happening. You mention the campaign on realistic, but it is unfair to compare that to actual players. Bots in the campaign, even on realistic, will not hold a candle to real players. As well as if somebody who is not locked onto you suddenly showing a red marker, it will lead to a lot of confusion. No fight UI in PVP is the wrong way to go about the turtle meta IMO.



Going to leave you with this though, spamming lights is NOT the way to dictate who is top tier or not. If this was the case why is Warlord, a heavy, considered the strongest class?

[Gemoroda]

i understand every thing you said. But why do you disagree with point 2?

[ChampionRuby50g]

i understand every thing you said. But why do you disagree with point 2?

If you read you can see why... because coupled with point 3 it's OP?
And as well as this been a fact, the vast majority of players will disagree with the UI been removed.

[Gemoroda]

take out point 1 3 4 5 6. i'm talking only about point 2. whats so wrong about having the directional ui indicator or whatever the hell it's called taken out of the game after a character reaches rep1? or lets say rep 3? by rep 3 you had lots of matches against every character in the game. and as its stated in point 2 (and if not, i'll say it) i'm talking about removing the indicator only on the character you're locked on.the outer lock attacks should still appear. but its basically the same game, without the telegraphic reaction "oh red dot i have to parry. you literally have to watch the opponents weapon move.
the only people that wont agree with this would be the absolute beginners, but that's why i said it should be removed once you reach lvl 3 per character, or lazy people. don't tell me that YOU par example wont be able to see the move and where it comes from if you don't have those arrows indicators.

(Again i'm only talking about point 2. not 2 + 3 or any other combination)

[Max_Disrespect]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0k-rLXfaNsI

Alomst all of the points stated would, in my opinion, be enough.

[ChampionRuby50g]

take out point 1 3 4 5 6. i'm talking only about point 2. whats so wrong about having the directional ui indicator or whatever the hell it's called taken out of the game after a character reaches rep1? or lets say rep 3? by rep 3 you had lots of matches against every character in the game. and as its stated in point 2 (and if not, i'll say it) i'm talking about removing the indicator only on the character you're locked on.the outer lock attacks should still appear. but its basically the same game, without the telegraphic reaction "oh red dot i have to parry. you literally have to watch the opponents weapon move.
the only people that wont agree with this would be the absolute beginners, but that's why i said it should be removed once you reach lvl 3 per character, or lazy people. don't tell me that YOU par example wont be able to see the move and where it comes from if you don't have those arrows indicators.

(Again i'm only talking about point 2. not 2 + 3 or any other combination)

I can see just fine. But what about those with sight impediments? They may have to rely on the red indicator to see where an attack is coming from, and then to parry. Are we supposed to just forget about those people? Seems like you have.
With this implemented as well, parrying would see another indirect nerf as well. It will most definitely become harder to parry, and yes some players would be able to adapt but you will see a lot more failed attempts. The chance to parry does not need a nerf, the rewards after parry needs a "tweak"

[Gemoroda]

I can see just fine. But what about those with sight impediments? They may have to rely on the red indicator to see where an attack is coming from, and then to parry. Are we supposed to just forget about those people? Seems like you have.
With this implemented as well, parrying would see another indirect nerf as well. It will most definitely become harder to parry, and yes some players would be able to adapt but you will see a lot more failed attempts. The chance to parry does not need a nerf, the rewards after parry needs a "tweak"

sorry but I completely disagree. first if you have visual impediments in that amalgam of colors either the reticle or just the animation would be the same thing.
the removal of the reticle would just forced you to think instead of button mashing. second, there's a new invention called GLASSES. if someone can't see, he should use them. if he doesn't want to do that it means he thinks he's ok without them 2ich is he's problem
third if we talk about parryws yes they do. and this is just the thing. looking at the enemy and observe from where the attack comes, and parry when he sees the attack connect. again not this mindless "ooo red arrow. now I press parry. I'm good" nonsense.
forth and most important (I said it and will repeat it over and over) a confirmed GB after a parry should totally utterly and irrevocably be taken out of for honor. I'm not arguing wit you out of fun. it's just that the reasons you gave for the UK indicator to Stay are so childish, and without a base, because you know in your soul that removing it will make it so that you have to pay attention a little more and only last ppl would disagree with this. until a good reason comes.

[ChampionRuby50g]

sorry but I completely disagree. first if you have visual impediments in that amalgam of colors either the reticle or just the animation would be the same thing.
the removal of the reticle would just forced you to think instead of button mashing. second, there's a new invention called GLASSES. if someone can't see, he should use them. if he doesn't want to do that it means he thinks he's ok without them 2ich is he's problem
third if we talk about parryws yes they do. and this is just the thing. looking at the enemy and observe from where the attack comes, and parry when he sees the attack connect. again not this mindless "ooo red arrow. now I press parry. I'm good" nonsense.
forth and most important (I said it and will repeat it over and over) a confirmed GB after a parry should totally utterly and irrevocably be taken out of for honor. I'm not arguing wit you out of fun. it's just that the reasons you gave for the UK indicator to Stay are so childish, and without a base, because you know in your soul that removing it will make it so that you have to pay attention a little more and only last ppl would disagree with this. until a good reason comes.

If you button mash in For Honor, you've got very little chance of doing well. Everyone knows that except my girlfriend. For Honor is a reactive game, you see the red arrow on right, you react to it, not button mash.
I'm speaking on behalf of my cousin here, who actually does have the best prescription glasses he can buy (and no its not a new invention, they've been around for years) and with his eyes he tells me that playing the campaign on realistic was such a challenge for him to the point of it been not enjoyable, simply because it was still to hard for him to see. This is from a console perspective, we arent hunched up with our face 12 inches away from a computer screen. He had to ask me to finish the Appollyon fight for him because reacting to her moves was to difficult for him without the indicators. Imagine how hard it would be for him to have fun in multiplayer if he couldn't even see the direction of the attacks. So I am thinking for my cousin who can just manage with glasses, not for myself.
As well as this, how is it going to be possible to react to zone flickers? As it is it's already hard enough but doable. Without indicators I believe it will be nigh impossible.

So many times I have said that I agree GB after parry needs a tweak. I've never said otherwise so I don't know why you are acting as if I had.
Also think of this: all the people who don't have the time on their hands to become skilled players, people who just aren't as good at the game but still want to play it because they have fun, or slow reflexs are going to be hit hardest by this. Prehaps you and I it wouldn't effect so much because we are skilled, but the game needs to be fair and balanced between lower skill and higher skill players, In which the gap is already large. The devs want to make this smaller rather than larger, and doing this will do exactly that. Make the gap between high skilled players and lower skilled players huge.
In the end, removing the indicator becomes more about chance than actual skill. Deflecting will also be affected, as well as making stunning virtually useless other than small damage. The whole point of stunning is to remove your vision of the enemy's guard. But now if you cant see the direction and the red indicator, stunning will do nothing other than a quick flash and screen changes color for a short moment.