Here's why Nobushi is busted in team modes | Forums

[Alernakin]

I posted this on reddit already, but I was told to think of making this thread here as well.

Hello. My Uplay name is SB.Alernakin, and I've been playing Nobushi since launch. I've also been involved in the tournament scene since day one, so my thoughts will be presented from the perspective of tournament level players. Today, I'm here to tell you exactly why Nobushi is the strongest 2v2 and 4v4 character. Many people don't know or believe this, since she's a relatively weak 1v1 character, but she's very much needed in all the team modes in order to be competitive.

First, I'll talk about 2v2 and why Nobushi is so strong in that mode.

-- Zone attack. It's quick, deals at least 33 damage (more with bleed) and has great AoE, nigh 360 degrees. On top of that, it can be made unparryable by simply positioning yourself so that there's someone on your right. It is then quicker than Peacekeeper zone. It can be used to interrupt all attempts at an offensive action from the opponents, meaning it's very easy to punish with it. And if all of that wasn't enough, it is nigh unpunishable. All it takes to block attacks is feinting second part of zone and cancelling recovery with a dash, which makes it an attack with 0 recovery frames. If the opponent decides to guard break you in your dash, you can punish that attempt very easily with a dash attack.

-- Dash attacks. Not only are they quick and deal at least a bar of damage, they also have no recovery frames, just like the zone attack, making them unpunishable on reaction. They can also be chained together, meaning guard breaking while Nobushi dashes is unreliable at best and heavily punishable at worst. Just like the zone, both dash attacks can be unlocked in order to make them unparryable (unlocked cobra strike is also quicker than usual), and even if that weren't possible, you could very easily target the other player while you use sidewinder due to its extraordinarly wide arc. As a side note, sidewinder hitbox does not match the animation.

-- Zero recovery. I know I already mentioned this twice, but it's a very big part of why Nobushi is so strong. Zone, dash attacks and viper's retreat all have virtually zero recovery frames due to dash cancel, and that cancel is very hard to punish. There are two ways to even attempt to punish all of those attacks -- one is to predict them and attack at pretty much the same time as the Nobushi. The other is to try using a guard break every now and then if the Nobushi isn't using dash attacks after recovery cancel. Both of those ways are, however, very unreliable and highly punishable.

-- Revenge. Some people think the Nobushi issue would be solved if only tournaments started implementing revenge. That is, however, not true. I'll use Barace's post here to aid me: https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitive...works_against/ Nobushi is always tagged with both enemies. This means that as long as the enemies are not also tagged with the Nobushi's ally, the game thinks that she is in a 1v2 when they attack her. In this situation her attacks give 0 revenge, and she gets 4x revenge. Once in revenge, her zone is amazingly strong and can turn the tide of battle very quickly.
Now that we got 2v2 out of the way, let's talk about 4v4.

-- Nobushi is the best 1vX character in the game. Any small mistake is easily punished with a zone attack, unlocked sidewinder is a 100% safe option due to its wide arc and being unparryable. The usual tactic in a 2v1 situation is to either use guard break into guaranteed damage or lock in the outnumbered player with CC. Nobushi has counterplay to both of those tactics -- if she reads a guard break correctly, that's free 33 unpunishable damage that she gets. If opponents try to use a lot of CC -- Nobushi can use her dash attacks for punish, or just zone if the one using CC abilities is on her right. Revenge just makes her all the more threatening.

-- Feats. Body count is by far the strongest level 1 feat in the game, and one of the strongest in general. It makes 1v1'ing a Nobushi in mid pretty much impossible -- usually you need at least two people to reliably kill her, and as already stated, Nobushi can win that situation as well. Pre-nerf revenge attack was the strongest level 2 feat in the game, however after nerf it is much weaker, therefore probably not a big issue. Her level 3 heal feat, however, can outheal demon embrace -- that's how strong it is. Combined with body count and the fact that Nobushi usually gets her feats the quickest, it makes her a very durable character that barely ever dies. Level 4 feats aren't much of an issue, fire bomb being strong in denying revives and end game fights, but other characters have similar or better level 4 feats.

-- Impact in team fights. Nobushi is the most important character in team fights. Killing one basically ensures victory, while losing your own spells disaster. Her insane zone AoE and damage, great range with dash attacks and, again, unpunishability all make her a must-have. You are simply at a disadvantage if you initiate a team fight without her.
I'm sure there are details that I've missed in this post, but I believe those are the main reasons Nobushi is one of the strongest characters in the game. I tried to make this thread as concise as possible while still having a lot of information.

As for how to fix this situation -- I have no amazing fixes. The easiest ones, for now, would be to make zone attack 24 damage and to adjust sidewinder hitbox so that it actually matches the animation. I believe unlocked attacks aren't easy to fix, otherwise they'd already be gone, but of course that has to go as well. Nobushi lacks a bit in some areas in 1v1, like hidden stance and kick, but it's important that we don't just buff her without nerfing at least the zone attack.

And if anyone doesn't believe me -- I'm including VODs of the last three big 2v2 tournaments with the best players in the game. Hint: there are Nobushis in almost all of the teams that did well.

ScottJund's Brawler's Guild: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/145913024

Reddit 2v2 Tournament: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/148742214

HallofHeroes 2v2 Tournament: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/149256069

[Alernakin]

I'm sorry, but have you even read the post? It's based on tournament play, with tournament VoDs attached. Do you have any counter arguments, or just that you think Nobushi isn't good, despite the best players in the game all agreeing with me?

[Gray360UK]

I'm sorry, but have you even read the post? It's based on tournament play, with tournament VoDs attached. Do you have any counter arguments, or just that you think Nobushi isn't good, despite the best players in the game all agreeing with me?

Funny that I just picked a random moment in the ScottJund link you provided, 2 hours 14, and there we have footage of a Nobushi being totally destroyed

Honestly, your opinion is your opinion, same for the guy above who replied to you. I think Nobushi is good, but in the middle of the pack at best. Also an opinion. What you just said, that 'all the best people agree with me' ... yeah ... okay

Overall, I am not even sure what your post is supposed to be saying? It is a buff request or a nerf request or just a general synopsis?

You describe the Nobushi as if she is some kind of God. You make many statements that are laughable 'Body count is by far the strongest level 1 feat in the game, and one of the strongest in general. It makes 1v1'ing a Nobushi in mid pretty much impossible' being a very good example. Total nonsense. Still, apparently after all that she needs fixing somehow?

[Alernakin]

Funny that I just picked a random moment in the ScottJund link you provided, 2 hours 14, and there we have footage of a Nobushi being totally destroyed

Honestly, your opinion is your opinion, same for the guy above who replied to you. I think Nobushi is good, but in the middle of the pack at best. Also an opinion. What you just said, that 'all the best people agree with me' ... yeah ... okay

Overall, I am not even sure what your post is supposed to be saying? It is a buff request or a nerf request or just a general synopsis?

You describe the Nobushi as if she is some kind of God. You make many statements that are laughable 'Body count is by far the strongest level 1 feat in the game, and one of the strongest in general. It makes 1v1'ing a Nobushi in mid pretty much impossible' being a very good example. Total nonsense. Still, apparently after all that she needs fixing somehow?

Oh, but you will ignore the fact that in all of those links, Nobushi teams were the one who won the tournament? ScottJund's tournament had 1,600$ prize pool. Do you think best players in the game would not use what's the strongest to win that kind of money? For over a month now, not a single non-Nobushi team has won against a good Nobushi team in a tournament.

And the purpose of my thread is clear. A) to raise awareness, b) to provide suggestions. All of those have been given to Ubisoft directly, but the community still thinks Nobushi is a low tier character, despite her being by far the strongest one in the game.

[Blasto95]

He's not trying to say that 90% of the playerbase is struggling with Nobushi in Team fights, its well established that any hero is viable in just about any situation for the majority of players. This guy here is not in the majority and is bringing up a valid point for the competitive scene.

I have no idea how to fix Nobushi for a competitive scene but they just have to be careful not to nerf her for the majority. Someway to increase her recovery frames, make the unlock ZA punishable. Fix her in ways that will mostly only effect the competitive scene.

Great read, wish we heard more from the players actually in the competitive scene chime in on balance changes around here.

[Dizzy4213]

What a load of horse****!

Let's nerf the living **** out of a low/mid-tier hero because some so-called 'competitive players' abuse unlock exploits to win.

Your post is full of so much hyperbole, I can't take any of it seriously. You see a lot of Nobushi in 2v2 tournaments. So what? That proves nothing, even if it's only the teams with a Nobushi winning. She is a zoning character, so naturally she will have more impact in a 2v2 fight than a character like Orochi for instance.

All of those have been given to Ubisoft directly, but the community still thinks Nobushi is a low tier character, despite her being by far the strongest one in the game.

[Gray360UK]

ScottJund's tournament had 1,600$ prize pool.

A whole $1,600 huh? Wow ... that's like ... enough to buy the back bumper of the average car ... truly high stakes stuff. Well you must be right then

So if the best players in the game only play the strongest characters, how does a team lose? I mean, they are the strongest characters and they are the best players, how can they possibly lose to each other? How can it be anything other than a neverevending tie, a draw, the unstoppable force meets the immovable object ...

Or maybe it's got something to do with the skill of the player?

The problem with people like you, that focus on the tournaments and the top 2% of the playerbase, is that you forget all about the other 98% of the playerbase. You've obviously done that, you make a statement that proves it 'the community still thinks Nobushi is a low tier character'. Maybe this is because the community is not ScottJund, tournaments and the top 2% of the playerbase?

Again, maybe it's got something to do with the skill of the player?

You're like a guy sitting on the tip of an iceberg thinking he knows everything, when all he can see is water and sky and he has no idea what's going on beneath the waves. You might want to take your head out of tournament players arses long enough to have a look at what's going on in the real world, or at least concede that if their opinions don't match yours then maybe you aren't automatically right about everything just because you watched a few tournaments that had Nobushi in them.

[Lucifist666]

I LOVE nobushi. I'm pretty decent with her but I feel like she is very immobile. I have a hard time avoiding in your face characters. it sounds like you need to teach me a thing or two. Haha! I'll be referring to this thread in the future. Thanks man.

[Blasto95]

A whole $1,600 huh? Wow ... that's like ... enough to buy the back bumper of the average car ... truly high stakes stuff. Well you must be right then

So if the best players in the game only play the strongest characters, how does a team lose? I mean, they are the strongest characters and they are the best players, how can they possibly lose to each other? How can it be anything other than a neverevending tie, a draw, the unstoppable force meets the immovable object ...

Or maybe it's got something to do with the skill of the player?

The problem with people like you, that focus on the tournaments and the top 2% of the playerbase, is that you forget all about the other 98% of the playerbase. You've obviously done that, you make a statement that proves it 'the community still thinks Nobushi is a low tier character'. Maybe this is because the community is not ScottJund, tournaments and the top 2% of the playerbase?

Again, maybe it's got something to do with the skill of the player?

You're like a guy sitting on the tip of an iceberg thinking he knows everything, when all he can see is water and sky and he has no idea what's going on beneath the waves. You might want to take your head out of tournament players arses long enough to have a look at what's going on in the real world, or at least concede that if their opinions don't match yours then maybe you aren't automatically right about everything just because you watched a few tournaments that had Nobushi in them.

Sooo you think canceling animations that probably should not be able to be canceled so quickly and unlock ZA's corresponds to the 98% player base skill level? Hes not asking for a flat out nerf to her damage(except for an OP ZA) or health or speed of her attacks. How about fixing unlock tech, make her recovery frames longer for certain moves that would be completely unnoticeable for 95% of players. Theres plenty of ways to tune a character that almost no one would notice yet could possibly fix grievances for the people that bring in thousands of viewers and potentially new players.

[ScottJund]

Sooo you think canceling animations that probably should not be able to be canceled so quickly and unlock ZA's corresponds to the 98% player base skill level? Hes not asking for a flat out nerf to her damage(except for an OP ZA) or health or speed of her attacks. How about fixing unlock tech, make her recovery frames longer for certain moves that would be completely unnoticeable for 95% of players. Theres plenty of ways to tune a character that almost no one would notice yet could possibly fix grievances for the people that bring in thousands of viewers and potentially new players.

Alernakin posting here was a terrible decision. The people here are not even remotely competitive so the responses to his topic (which is completely correct btw) is going to be met with the same people who cried for Warden to be nerfed into insignificance that don't really understand the game at higher level. There's no way to not sound smug saying that, but its 100% true.