Rework Suggestion - Conqueror | Forums

[S0Mi_xD]

Conqueror is a controversial case.
Many people say he is to weak, other say he is to strong - and i say, both fits.

This depends on against which hero you play and what part from of Conqu you look at.

Strong sites:

In this link, you will find a guide where i explained all about conqu and his abilities.
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...nquer-them-all

Here, i will mention those abilities/part which need a change.
In general, i think we need to wait for the def meta patch befor we adjust/rework etc. the heros.
But in this case i will mention abilities, that will not be affected by def meta changes.

At first i want to say, Conqueror has the best Defense in this game, and his defense works as a strong counter aswell.

1. Superior Block against heavy attacks

This happens by only holding the stance direction, and if successfully blocked a heavy you will be rewarded with a guaranteed GB.
So it is even easier, safer and rewards the same as a parry. Against a good Conqueror you will never be able to throw heavies.

I suggest here:
Make it work similar to the old deflect from Assassins, by changing the Guard/Stance direction at the right moment.
This would make superior block a more skill / reaction based ability, Conqueror would be affected by chip dmg if he not blocks it with a superior block.

Take a look at the Conqueror, his shild will glow golden, this is the window where the Superior block is activated when you attack with a heavy - this mechanic is hard to use, but it rewards with a heavy attack, if you counter an enemy attack perfectly.

youtube has been deactivated.
Do you accept the use of cookies to display and allow you to watch the video content?

So why not changing Superior block on normal blocking to a similar way like Superior block on attacking?

When you change your guard direction with Conqueror, he will have a short window where the superior block is activated, similar to the video.

The reward, a GB could stay - because the reward would be justified with a skill based action.

-------------------------------------------

2. Charged attacks

Here a Hyperarmor wouldn't be that bad of an idea.

------------------------------------------------------

3. Dmg or speed

Now this is kind of a thing.

Conqu is similar to Centurion, but have charged heavies, a bash attack feel pretty similar, have the same heavy dmg

But centurions 25 dmg heavies are as fast as light attacks.

So now the question is, does Conqu need more dmg, or need more speed to attack safer without a counter attack.

I personly would tend to attack faster, because the dmg is OK


--------------------------------------------

There are many other points but those are the most important things, in my opinon.

And point 1. is a requirement.

[Duskmare]

I'm going to jump straight into it here:

1) I would hate to see the superior block made into the equivalent of a parry. Not to mention that all characters can already get a superior block by timing their blocks, so it would take away the conqueror's advantage. I think the guard on heavy startup should have a slightly longer window. It's just nearly impossible to use at the moment and I say that having practiced against a bot for a good few hours before trying to take it to online matches.
If you're looking to nerf his superior block a bit then I would say making it like the assassin's guard stance would work, where it only holds for a few seconds then drops away into a normal guard. I also think it would be best if the guard renewed itself every time it blocked a hit as a superior block. (I'm thinking about the berzerker's area attack and it's longish duration).

2) I can see why hyper armour would be good but I have never once been knocked out of a charged heavy by an opponents attack. They're far more likely to go for the guardbreak or wait for the parry. I would suggest that instead of having two charging states it simply has one and gets to max damage pretty quickly. At the moment you can only get off a level 1 charged attack (when someone is knocked over via stamina or revenge) and it only adds the tiniest bit of damage, probably about half a light attack's worth.

3) I think the conqueror should gain some of the mechanics given to the centurion. Like stamina drain. I think blocking the conqueror's attacks should take more stamina than blocking other characters and his shield bash (which is relatively easy to dodge compared to the centurion's kick, the shinobi's kick, the warlord's headbutt, etc) should also get more stamina damage added to it.

As for getting faster or stronger, the conqueror is a heavy character and he's listed as a 'heavy hitter' (even though he does less damage with his heavy than the orochi does with his top lights) so I think he should get a serious damage boost. A good 10-15 point boost on his heavy attack and a 5-10 boost on his light attacks. I would also suggest the fully charged heavy adds less damage but that it only has one charge level and reaches fully charged at the same speed it currently reaches it's partial charge.

Alternatively you could boost the speed of his heavies a little, maybe by 200ms or so and add a little less damage, maybe 5-10 points. I definitely think his light attacks should be more powerful. At the moment they're just pathetic compared to other characters. Especially compared to the assassin characters.

I feel like the devs have a weird idea about what the strengths and weaknesses of each class should be. They seem to think that adding and subtracting health from the heavy and assassin classes, respectively, is a balanced difference. It's not. A heavy character should do about double or triple the damage a fast character can do, since the idea behind a fast character is that they hit quickly and often for their damage while using their dodges as openings for more small attacks, whereas heavies should swing slower and hit less often for large damage. The amount of health either character has doesn't really matter if you can't hit them. Maybe this will change without the defense meta when everyone is taking a lot of hits, but until then just having a health difference doesn't compensate for the damage and speed advantages the assassins have over the conqueror.

[S0Mi_xD]

I'm going to jump straight into it here:

1) I would hate to see the superior block made into the equivalent of a parry. Not to mention that all characters can already get a superior block by timing their blocks, so it would take away the conqueror's advantage. I think the guard on heavy startup should have a slightly longer window. It's just nearly impossible to use at the moment and I say that having practiced against a bot for a good few hours before trying to take it to online matches.
If you're looking to nerf his superior block a bit then I would say making it like the assassin's guard stance would work, where it only holds for a few seconds then drops away into a normal guard. I also think it would be best if the guard renewed itself every time it blocked a hit as a superior block. (I'm thinking about the berzerker's area attack and it's longish duration).

2) I can see why hyper armour would be good but I have never once been knocked out of a charged heavy by an opponents attack. They're far more likely to go for the guardbreak or wait for the parry. I would suggest that instead of having two charging states it simply has one and gets to max damage pretty quickly. At the moment you can only get off a level 1 charged attack (when someone is knocked over via stamina or revenge) and it only adds the tiniest bit of damage, probably about half a light attack's worth.

3) I think the conqueror should gain some of the mechanics given to the centurion. Like stamina drain. I think blocking the conqueror's attacks should take more stamina than blocking other characters and his shield bash (which is relatively easy to dodge compared to the centurion's kick, the shinobi's kick, the warlord's headbutt, etc) should also get more stamina damage added to it.

As for getting faster or stronger, the conqueror is a heavy character and he's listed as a 'heavy hitter' (even though he does less damage with his heavy than the orochi does with his top lights) so I think he should get a serious damage boost. A good 10-15 point boost on his heavy attack and a 5-10 boost on his light attacks. I would also suggest the fully charged heavy adds less damage but that it only has one charge level and reaches fully charged at the same speed it currently reaches it's partial charge.

Alternatively you could boost the speed of his heavies a little, maybe by 200ms or so and add a little less damage, maybe 5-10 points. I definitely think his light attacks should be more powerful. At the moment they're just pathetic compared to other characters. Especially compared to the assassin characters.

I feel like the devs have a weird idea about what the strengths and weaknesses of each class should be. They seem to think that adding and subtracting health from the heavy and assassin classes, respectively, is a balanced difference. It's not. A heavy character should do about double or triple the damage a fast character can do, since the idea behind a fast character is that they hit quickly and often for their damage while using their dodges as openings for more small attacks, whereas heavies should swing slower and hit less often for large damage. The amount of health either character has doesn't really matter if you can't hit them. Maybe this will change without the defense meta when everyone is taking a lot of hits, but until then just having a health difference doesn't compensate for the damage and speed advantages the assassins have over the conqueror.

Thanks you for you answer.

1. I don't want to sound rude, but are we playing the same game ?
The only Heroes, who have a superior block are Kensei on dodge, Warlord on Light attacks and full block (not sure about full block), Valk on Light attacks, dodge and shield tackle, and Conqu on block, dodge, and Heavy attacks (and zone).
There is no mechanic on which every hero gets a for a perfect timed block.

I wouldn't be the equivalent to parry, it would be still a superior block, that means you wouldn't have any risk, not like parries.
Conqu would be still in advantage, but not that much, that heavy attacks would be useless against him.

Mh, yeah about the heavy attack sup block, it could be abit longer at least 50-100 ms.

Thats exact the thing i am talking about xD - it would work like you say it (and i said befor) - if you switch guard stance, for a brief moment superior block will be activated, and that falls back to normal block (also assassin block isn't a few seconds, its around 1,5 second and shinobis is even shorter)

If the guard renews or not isn't relevant. Berserkers zone is the only one that works this way, so nobody would care about this just because of one attack in the game.

2.
I know, but the hyper would be still usefull for the first charge, because if an enemy attacks or starts to move you can charge up the 1st stage, get hyper and maybe trade, it is charged pretty fast.

About the rest ... yeah we will see.
Stamina dmg is ok.

If he needs attack dmg or speed, i already talked about it

[Duskmare]

Thanks you for you answer.

1. I don't want to sound rude, but are we playing the same game ?
The only Heroes, who have a superior block are Kensei on dodge, Warlord on Light attacks and full block (not sure about full block), Valk on Light attacks, dodge and shield tackle, and Conqu on block, dodge, and Heavy attacks (and zone).
There is no mechanic on which every hero gets a for a perfect timed block.

I wouldn't be the equivalent to parry, it would be still a superior block, that means you wouldn't have any risk, not like parries.
Conqu would be still in advantage, but not that much, that heavy attacks would be useless against him.

Mh, yeah about the heavy attack sup block, it could be abit longer at least 50-100 ms.

Thats exact the thing i am talking about xD - it would work like you say it (and i said befor) - if you switch guard stance, for a brief moment superior block will be activated, and that falls back to normal block (also assassin block isn't a few seconds, its around 1,5 second and shinobis is even shorter)

If the guard renews or not isn't relevant. Berserkers zone is the only one that works this way, so nobody would care about this just because of one attack in the game.

2.
I know, but the hyper would be still usefull for the first charge, because if an enemy attacks or starts to move you can charge up the 1st stage, get hyper and maybe trade, it is charged pretty fast.

About the rest ... yeah we will see.
Stamina dmg is ok.

If he needs attack dmg or speed, i already talked about it

1) Haha, that's not rude at all, you're fine. :P
I mean, you get the different kind of blocks, you have the block where it seems to slam off your character, it deals chip damage and they can continue their combo. Then there's what I thought was superior blocking which interrupts their combo and has that white shimmer. Maybe the superior block just has a longer recovery time rather than being exactly the same as a timed block from another character...

I don't know, the conqueror can already kinda protect his parries by holding the heavy attack button instead of just pressing it. Since that will let him charge a heavy if he misses the parry or if his opponent feints, letting him block their attack and retaliate. It only doesn't work if they feint into a guardbreak since they'll get that without you being able to stop it since you were charging a heavy.

Yeah, at least we can agree on that, haha. It doesn't need too much of a boost but like you say 50-100ms would be enough.

Well, that wouldn't be too bad, though it kinda becomes pointless if they conqueror can just renew the guard every second or two. I mean, it'd be annoying for the conqueror to constantly re-press the same guard direction but other than that it wouldn't have an impact on the game... Also the renew on block would be necessary for ganks too.

2) I see what you're saying but it wouldn't be a worthwhile trade for the Conqueror. Like I said, despite being labeled a 'heavy hitter' he's one of the weakest characters.

I have to say I don't really notice any of the stamina damage the conqueror does when I fight as him. It's never really had any impact for me. I only ever use the shield bash to get the free light attack, not for the stamina drain. If they added more of a stamina drain maybe it would be worth using it that way. Otherwise it's just risking a dodge-guardbreak/punish for nothing.

Haha, you did talk about damage or speed. You suggested speed would be your choice, i was just saying I'd go for damage. :P

[nyrue]

I don't believe, I cant believe that superior block was intended to be used this way, just block then get a free GB, its suppose to be an offensive tool you use to attack off of block, which is very difficutl to intentionally do because the timing is almost identical to the parry times, and far as increasing his speed or damage I say neither

Its all about the charged heavy this is conqs signature move, and his hardest hitting, but yeah its made useless by the fact you can GB him while he's charging or how easy it is too parry,

I believe he should be able too GB while charging his heavy attack

I think his shield bash need more recovery frames on whiff, and I believe he should maybe get a free heavy off of SB to compensate for making it punishable

[Duskmare]

I don't believe, I cant believe that superior block was intended to be used this way, just block then get a free GB, its suppose to be an offensive tool you use to attack off of block, which is very difficutl to intentionally do because the timing is almost identical to the parry times, and far as increasing his speed or damage I say neither

Its all about the charged heavy this is conqs signature move, and his hardest hitting, but yeah its made useless by the fact you can GB him while he's charging or how easy it is too parry,

I believe he should be able too GB while charging his heavy attack

I think his shield bash need more recovery frames on whiff, and I believe he should maybe get a free heavy off of SB to compensate for making it punishable

You suggest he gets a free heavy for a superior block but don't like the guardbreak? The whole point of guardbreaking after a superior block is so you can get the free heavy, haha.

The charged heavy definitely needs improved. You can already guardbreak from charging your heavy... Unless you mean guardbreak interrupt? If you could keep charging your heavy through a dodge, that would be good. That would make it useful since you'd be able to dodge or block an attack and then slam your opponent.

His shield bash doesn't need nerfed. It's pretty much his only viable combo move and it's already easy to dodge compared to other similar moves like the shinobi kick, warlord headbutt and centurion's jabs.

[nyrue]

You suggest he gets a free heavy for a superior block but don't like the guardbreak? The whole point of guardbreaking after a superior block is so you can get the free heavy, haha.

The charged heavy definitely needs improved. You can already guardbreak from charging your heavy... Unless you mean guardbreak interrupt? If you could keep charging your heavy through a dodge, that would be good. That would make it useful since you'd be able to dodge or block an attack and then slam your opponent.

His shield bash doesn't need nerfed. It's pretty much his only viable combo move and it's already easy to dodge compared to other similar moves like the shinobi kick, warlord headbutt and centurion's jabs.

sorry I did mean GBI, and the difference between >block>GB>heavy and just swinging is pretty substantial, have superior block on start up is about having your guard remain active for a few frames while your attack comes out, IMO they should increase the frames that your guard remains active during heavy start up or at least move them around so you can more easily use this

and while his SB is easy enough to dodge for the most part it is non punishable which too me is unacceptable for anything that leads to damage so if you i'm just proposing up the risk up the reward

[Duskmare]

sorry I did mean GBI, and the difference between >block>GB>heavy and just swinging is pretty substantial, have superior block on start up is about having your guard remain active for a few frames while your attack comes out, IMO they should increase the frames that your guard remains active during heavy start up or at least move them around so you can more easily use this

and while his SB is easy enough to dodge for the most part it is non punishable which too me is unacceptable for anything that leads to damage so if you i'm just proposing up the risk up the reward

No worries, I got what you meant.

Oh yeah... I was thinking purely 1v1, where it wouldn't make a difference, but if you were surrounded and wanted to get an attack off quickly then a heavy on a superior block would be better.

Yeah, that seems to be the one thing everyone here agrees on. The guard frames on the heavy start-up need buffed.

It is punishable. Just light attack before it hits you. Or if you're a character with a dodge attack just dash and hit.

[UbiJurassic]

Awesome feedback guys! I'll be sure to note it down for the team. Conqueror is in a weird place right now. We know he needs changes, but with the defensive meta patch coming this season, we also don't want to make major changes before it's release. The reason why is because Conq's playstyle relies heavily on defensive play. After the defense patch releases, we want to see how the current conqueror performs with the changes before we start address his larger problems.

[Duskmare]

Awesome feedback guys! I'll be sure to note it down for the team. Conqueror is in a weird place right now. We know he needs changes, but with the defensive meta patch coming this season, we also don't want to make major changes before it's release. The reason why is because Conq's playstyle relies heavily on defensive play. After the defense patch releases, we want to see how the current conqueror performs with the changes before we start address his larger problems.

Thanks Ubi!
Hopefully our feedback will still be applicable and give insight into how the conqueror can be balanced post defence meta patch.