Buff Parry Rewards | Forums

[nyrue]

yeah you heard me, I've been hearing a ton of talk about nerfing parry rewards and it truly has me worried that this might happen, I cannot stress how massive a mistake this would be, yes parrying is relatively easy and defense is super strong but there is a reason for that, 4v4 modes. if defense wasn't as strong as it was you would absolutely stand no chance in a 2v1 even against the worst opponents, because as long as they keep attacking there is no possible way to get any damage out without getting hit yourself.

with the recent nerf too revenge and the rebalancing of gear stats I would say parry could stand for a buff, nothing huge maybe increased recovery frames when you parry an opponent you are not locked onto, or when parrying more than one person at once,

I've said it before and I will say it again, parry is not the problem it is feinting and chip damage. I've left posts about how these two things are at the heart of the def meta and how small changes to both of these things could drastically change the way this game plays virtually eliminating the def meta in 1v1 scenarios while preserving balance for 4v4 modes

nerfing parry rewards will only decrease my motivation to play active defense and increase my incentive to play passively, I love this game despite its many many flaws and I've already logged over 500 hours on this game over 300 of those hours spent in PVP, my KD is nothing to brag about but most people who know me, know that i'm a decent player and more importantly I know what i'm talking about, I've been playing fighting games semi competitively for almost a decade,

i'm just asking you as a community take the time to think about what your asking for, because your opinion does matter

[Soul_of_Midgard]

I'm not playing competetively but i totally agree with you.

[S0Mi_xD]

yeah you heard me, I've been hearing a ton of talk about nerfing parry rewards and it truly has me worried that this might happen, I cannot stress how massive a mistake this would be, yes parrying is relatively easy and defense is super strong but there is a reason for that, 4v4 modes. if defense wasn't as strong as it was you would absolutely stand no chance in a 2v1 even against the worst opponents, because as long as they keep attacking there is no possible way to get any damage out without getting hit yourself.

with the recent nerf too revenge and the rebalancing of gear stats I would say parry could stand for a buff, nothing huge maybe increased recovery frames when you parry an opponent you are not locked onto, or when parrying more than one person at once,

Nerfing parry rewards will not affect 4v4 ganking situation, because if you parry 3 ppl at one time, GB one of them, you will get interrupted because those ppl you parried will be recovered really fast, again the reward will not affect a 1vX situation.

It is much better to attack with a heavy or a light in this situation and get out of this situation, or immediatly run or regroup or coordinate yourself!

I've said it before and I will say it again, parry is not the problem it is feinting and chip damage. I've left posts about how these two things are at the heart of the def meta and how small changes to both of these things could drastically change the way this game plays virtually eliminating the def meta in 1v1 scenarios while preserving balance for 4v4 modes

Parry is one of the biggest problems of the def meta, if you don't fix parry the best chip dmg will be useless.
About feinting, it works pretty well, but i do not deny that a adjustment MAYBE could help, but only maybe.
The ways you suggested about feinting changes, would make feinting more effective, but ONLY for baiting for parries especially Raider, LB, Kensei, Shugoki.
And it wouldn't be just a small change, it would overpower feinting.

I do understand why you want to change feinting, you want make parries more risky, so you can't take back a failed parry attemped that easy (nerfing the defesive part of feints), but at the same time you would break it offensive part of feints.
It would make feinting much harder for heros who rely on feinting, and thats nearly all heros, especially Berserker, Kensei, Orochi.
As a Berserker main, i can say, it's already not that easy to keep a good feinting game, it needs very much concentration, coordination etc.

You say that the community should think about the consiquenses of their suggestions/wishes, but you need to think about it as well.
I made many threads about how changes to parry and block would good solution and also explained it many times why and how it would work.

nerfing parry rewards will only decrease my motivation to play active defense and increase my incentive to play passively, I love this game despite its many many flaws and I've already logged over 500 hours on this game over 300 of those hours spent in PVP, my KD is nothing to brag about but most people who know me, know that i'm a decent player and more importantly I know what i'm talking about, I've been playing fighting games semi competitively for almost a decade,

i'm just asking you as a community take the time to think about what your asking for, because your opinion does matter

haha, exactly thats the reason why we need a change to parry, you say it youself, nerfing the reward, would change your motivation to play active defensive, by this you mean block more than parry.
If you block more instead of parry, in this time a good chip dmg will be usefull, because chip dmg is the dmg on blocked heavies

The current gameplay relies more on parry than on block.

A change to parry rewards will change your mindset, from "i can parry evey attack for a good reward" to -> "i need to know which attack is worth to parry and which to block" (that means, parry will be more of a real skill tool)

[nyrue]

ok so yeah if you parry 3 opponents yes typically you want to hit the last one then return to block, but occasionally with the right spacing it is beneficial to grab the last opponent and throw him at another, you then can top heavy or w/e while only worring about getting hit by one opponent if he is smart enough or quick enough too see what you are doing, and I do believe the title of the thread is "buff parry rewards"

first off that's the intention of feint, you feint then you parry I'm pretty sure that's what the devs had intended for this mechanic, yes you can do other things but i'm pretty sure that was the original design, and I don't think feinting is in any danger of being overpowered at least not for most characters and I say cross that bridge if and when we get there, and in my experience playing many different characters feinting is far from difficult, at least if your the one initiating,

and I have read many of your posts and while we may not agree about this particular subject, this is my opinion and I have yet to be persuaded to change it

[S0Mi_xD]

ok so yeah if you parry 3 opponents yes typically you want to hit the last one then return to block, but occasionally with the right spacing it is beneficial to grab the last opponent and throw him at another, you then can top heavy or w/e while only worring about getting hit by one opponent if he is smart enough or quick enough too see what you are doing, and I do believe the title of the thread is "buff parry rewards"

first off that's the intention of feint, you feint then you parry I'm pretty sure that's what the devs had intended for this mechanic, yes you can do other things but i'm pretty sure that was the original design, and I don't think feinting is in any danger of being overpowered at least not for most characters and I say cross that bridge if and when we get there, and in my experience playing many different characters feinting is far from difficult, at least if your the one initiating,

and I have read many of your posts and while we may not agree about this particular subject, this is my opinion and I have yet to be persuaded to change it

Me as well, i read many threads and post, and i appreciate your your opinions, i see and understand, that you think about many things and have some experience.
In first line i don't want to change your opinion, more i always try to imgagine suggestions like yours. But in the case of feinting i can't imagin the usefullness of a feinting change in a such immens way.

But we need to wait if the parry change will be BS, i'll be one of the first persons who will raise my voice against it.

I personly think, it shouldn't be a nerf or a buff to parry rewards, but more a balance.

And from a objective perspective i do think that UBI has some good Devs, who should know what they are doing (thinking about centurion or shinobi i do sometimes doubt it but ok - thats another thing )

[nyrue]

Absolutely not, nerf them. Parrying is one of the causes of the turtle to begin with.

is it though?

[AzureSky.]

yeah you heard me, I've been hearing a ton of talk about nerfing parry rewards and it truly has me worried that this might happen, I cannot stress how massive a mistake this would be, yes parrying is relatively easy and defense is super strong but there is a reason for that, 4v4 modes. if defense wasn't as strong as it was you would absolutely stand no chance in a 2v1 even against the worst opponents, because as long as they keep attacking there is no possible way to get any damage out without getting hit yourself.

with the recent nerf too revenge and the rebalancing of gear stats I would say parry could stand for a buff, nothing huge maybe increased recovery frames when you parry an opponent you are not locked onto, or when parrying more than one person at once,

I've said it before and I will say it again, parry is not the problem it is feinting and chip damage. I've left posts about how these two things are at the heart of the def meta and how small changes to both of these things could drastically change the way this game plays virtually eliminating the def meta in 1v1 scenarios while preserving balance for 4v4 modes

nerfing parry rewards will only decrease my motivation to play active defense and increase my incentive to play passively, I love this game despite its many many flaws and I've already logged over 500 hours on this game over 300 of those hours spent in PVP, my KD is nothing to brag about but most people who know me, know that i'm a decent player and more importantly I know what i'm talking about, I've been playing fighting games semi competitively for almost a decade,

i'm just asking you as a community take the time to think about what your asking for, because your opinion does matter

Im actually with the "DONT NERF PARRY" team, the only guys that parry lights (not obvious ones like dodge lights of orochi and kensei) of 500ms are just a very few % of top players, heavy parry yeah, its like you cant really do much heavys in this game and in top play it becomes a mind game rather than "i can parry that heavy?" you let it go or feint it, to bait gb and other things.

my suggestion is not nerfing parry but making heavy parrys harder, so not everyone can do it, also reducing the reward of parrying long channeled heavys (the slower ones give you more safe frames if someones parry you) take in mind that a heavy parry also deals a lot of stamina damage, so its not like they leave without scratches. (this + the nerfs on no stamina state should make it balanced)

Also add to this, making GB harder to tech, right now its very very easy (almost 100% of players i see in my games do it)

i think the pace of the game is just a little defensive but not so far of the ideal point of this game (if you want faster spammy games go for other fighting games) since its based on what action beats what action after the 2 players do it at almost the same time (you should do this if you have a slow lights character) and mind games.

So in conclusion im in favor of making the skill ceiling higher to nerf the turtle meta, nerfing the skillfull actions of the game will only result in a bad spammy game that everyone can be good just mashing buttons and thats not the point of this game. (if someone want that go play lol that has infinite stamina = mana and no wiff punishes in almost all the actions)

[Pestilence1X]

While I do agree that parrying should be rewarding, I don't agree that it should be left where it's at, especially with offense being so weak. The number one biggest problem with the defensive meta is not that you can deal damage while defending, but that it's more rewarding and much easier to defend than attack. If defending was made much more difficult than attacking and was less rewarding, then people wouldn't turtle so much and parrying would be fine to stay where it's at.

[nyrue]

I agree with azure sky, in that this game should reward skill, no matter what changes they make I think we all can agree on that

[S0Mi_xD]

Im actually with the "DONT NERF PARRY" team, the only guys that parry lights (not obvious ones like dodge lights of orochi and kensei) of 500ms are just a very few % of top players, heavy parry yeah, its like you cant really do much heavys in this game and in top play it becomes a mind game rather than "i can parry that heavy?" you let it go or feint it, to bait gb and other things.

my suggestion is not nerfing parry but making heavy parrys harder, so not everyone can do it, also reducing the reward of parrying long channeled heavys (the slower ones give you more safe frames if someones parry you) take in mind that a heavy parry also deals a lot of stamina damage, so its not like they leave without scratches. (this + the nerfs on no stamina state should make it balanced)

Also add to this, making GB harder to tech, right now its very very easy (almost 100% of players i see in my games do it)

i think the pace of the game is just a little defensive but not so far of the ideal point of this game (if you want faster spammy games go for other fighting games) since its based on what action beats what action after the 2 players do it at almost the same time (you should do this if you have a slow lights character) and mind games.

So in conclusion im in favor of making the skill ceiling higher to nerf the turtle meta, nerfing the skillfull actions of the game will only result in a bad spammy game that everyone can be good just mashing buttons and thats not the point of this game. (if someone want that go play lol that has infinite stamina = mana and no wiff punishes in almost all the actions)

The biggest issue with parry is, that you are not limited in using such a strong tool.
1. Parry interrupts the enemies actions
2. Drains a TON of stamina from him
3. AND rewards with a counter attack, and a GB is always safe (so a damn strong tool rewards with a strong tool/reward)
4. But it cost NO stamina

5. Has only the risk to miss/to be baited
6. A bait can be countered with a Feint

Adjusting the reward is a good thing, because it rewards to much in a offensive way, (it rewards you with good dmg for playing defensive/ relieng on a defensive tool)
Also, there are other defensive tools, especially deflects, dodge counter (shoulder pin etc.), - why should you use them if parry rewards you much more and is easiers and safer ?

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About GB, i do agree with you, it shouldn't be that easy to tech.
But if you want to make it harder to count, you would also need to limit it much more, because currently you can spam GBs in a ridiculous way.

Limiting by
1. Raising the stamina cost, so you can only use it 3-4 times in a row
2. A time limit/ cooldown (what is really silliy in such a game)
3. Only using after an action, like feint or in a chain

Personlly, i am for limiting GBs and also parries with a high stamina cost both around 1/3 - 1/4 stamina cost.

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Here an example from Soul Calibur 5 - this explains it very simple and very good.
I know, i can't compare For Honor that easy with a beat'em up, because For Honor isn't a pure Beat'em up.
But For Honors most mechanics are similar to beat'em ups.

Those vids. show how good mechanics can be made and the last video sums them all up
Sure Sc5 is not the only game, but for me, it was the closest game, with skill based mechanics ^^

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb2EmHJAl80
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRgM2H71qV4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8w_OYIxhlw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM29kRPin6g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knsneWUzI30

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But i hope we will see the def meta patch soon, i want to know how the devs decided