Senior Member
Ever wonder why your team doesn't seem to be particularly horrible, or in turn the enemy team players don't seem to be particularly good, and yet your team just loses one sidedly?
Here's usually why it happens: bad tactics.
Look in the picture. The score difference is overwhelming. But no. The team didn't have any BOTs, nor were particularly newbies. No, the team was not one-sidedly undergeared. What DID happen, however, was that everyone in the team, despite my warnings, were drawn into A like an insect without higher brain functions into a bug-zapper light.
The game starts out normally. Our team gets our side A, enemy team gets enemy side C. There are some different choices tactically, from that point, and this time, it started out with 1 person moving straight to C, 2 people going to B, and one dumb, idiot doing that "I'm at the sides guarding and boosting" thing. Woop-dee-too, things started smell bad the moment I saw that one guy stay at A just standing "guard". What a darned waste of manpower.
What happens next is a story that's been told a thousand times for a thousand years. Divide and conquer.
● The guy that went to C was a "shinoob" -- wasn't very good, got caught by 2 enemies and killed real fast
● The lawbringer standing guard at A did nothing
● Me and a centurion at middle point -- B -- initially faced 2, but the 2 other enemies that killed the shib came
So the numbers at mid is now doubled against our favor, it's 2v4... and despite the help pings, the lawbringer does nothing. Typical2v4 situations, I've been thinking whether it would be better to retreat, or just get ready to be killed and buy as much time as possible... and so I chose the latter, hoping at least the lawb, or the shib who respawned could at least make past B and disrupt C.
Instead, the lawb, still doesn't move. The centurion gets killed first, and the respawned shib comes to B. There's the second mistake. While it was touching that the shib tried to come and save me the tactical situation is all wrong. The centurion is dead and goes into respawn waiting, I'm the almost dead and surrounded by 3 enemies, 1 of the enemies makes it towards our A after the cent got killed (smart move -- no need to waste manpower when a 1v3 would already be easy enough).... and in this situation the shib comes for me at B.
What happens? Easily anticipated. Just before the shib arrives, I'm dead. So the newly respawned shib is now immediately surrounded by 3 enemies, and the lawb is fighting 1v1 on the sides.
Guess what:
● the shib dies
● me and the shib died almost at the same time so the team's 2 people down.
● cent is just coming off respawn
● the lawb's fighting 1v1 at A
● the rest 3 enemies that were at B are all alive, and coming for A
So both B and C remains at enemy hands, A is contested and generating no score, the cent goes to help A out, me and the shib are waiting for respawn, and A is swamped 2v4. From that point on, it's an endless cycle of some of team members always being dead, never all 4 alive at the same time, and making the worst mistake of all -- being drawn into A like a firefly.
See, to some people it may sound like a good idea to all go for A, take our closest zone first and start out a counter attack from there. But what really happens is very simple.
If we all flock to one place, THEY all flock to one place as well.
Why don't "gank squads" work in dominion? Why do people think "gank squads" exist (like a doofus they are)? Everything explained above is pretty much the reason. From the shinobi's point of view:
● from the very start when he went to C he met a 1v2 situation and got killed
● And then when he respawned and came to B -- also a poor choice -- he fell under a 1v3 situation
● Around the time me and the shib respawn, the 2v4 at A is partway through, the lawb is dead and in respawn, cent is about to die, the shib goes to A again and makes the same mistake again... the centurion dies, and now it's an outnumbered fight for the third time for the shib -- 1v3 against the shib again.
Was that the result of the enemies running a deathsquad of gankers? No. It was the result of our team's poor choices, but as a result, from the shinobi's point of view, he feels every fight he's being ganked. So guys like that come here, and then start long lengthy posts about how the game's unfair and dominated by gankers...and blablablablah and all that shi*, but sorry, no it's not a ganksquad. It's stupid gameplay backfiring on you.
Anyways, from that point on, the result is the score above. Our guys FLOCK to A without thinking. But if we flock to one place, they all flock to one place. Every fight is close in numbers and therefore, takes some time. Even when one or two from either side gets killed, they are revived in the process of that long fight, or the fight takes long enough that they respawn and come all the way to A again.
So what happens when B and C are both at enemy hands, generating points non-stop, and A is contested like forever, generating no points?
The score difference you see up there.
Like I say so often, "gank" is simply playing smart, and Dominion type PvP formats are about speed -- it's how fast and efficiently you use your manpower to achieve multiple objectives that matters the most. Dominion type games are about "if the enemy takes 1 zone from us, we take 2 from them" mentality. It's about initiative and aggressiveness, willingness to seek out fights and make the enemies waste their manpower.
The "if we successfully guard and defend our points, we'll be advantageous and win" mentality DOESN'T WORK because it's a passive, reactive mentality. The turtle-up/defend/reactive play mentality may work in combat level, but in the tactical sense, standing guard is only useful when someone comes to contest it, and you can actually dispatch that someone when that happens. In other words, for a guarding mentality to be effective you have to give up initiative and basically wait until someone comes to you. All along during that 'waiting' period you do nothing -- and therefore you're a waste to the team, a piece of deadwood, non-contributor. So your non-contribution makes it extremely likely the rest of the team gets killed before you, and when all the surviving enemies come to you finally, you can't even stop them. ZERO USE AT ALL.
The "guard zones" mentality is basically like WW1 trench-fighting mentality, when the enemies are already fighting with mechanized infantry and aeroplanes. It's an obsolete tactic in Dominion. The by-far, most preferred mentality of winning teams is to take more zones than you lose.
Don't give up your initiative so foolishly. Move and do something.
From the start one of the team members was basically a deadweight -- standing guard in a zone only means something when an enemy comes to take it, and you can guard it successfully when the enemy actually does come. This is the reason why I usually say "boosting/guarding" mentality is just PHAIL. The lawbringer, initially, guarded a zone which no assassin came to poke/prod... and by the time the enemies came to contest it, they came in full force -- made possible because the lawbringer didn't help anyone out. So he's a double PHAIL.
That screwed up our respawn times, and the end result was the enemies were almost always in 4-men full strength, whereas someone on our team was always dead, and we were rarely ever at full force.
The third mistake was in that pitiful state, our players were lured into A which ended up in a fruitless, useless, long contest of zone A which earned us rarely any points, and allowed the enemy to jump far ahead in the lead by just having a fun brawling to their heart's content.
Usually in those situations, you shouldn't be going to A. People should have blown past to B and C, to draw them out from A, and THEN take A. An assassin class that goes to C should be monitoring the situation and the map, and when usually your team ignores A for the time being and goes to B and C, the opponent has no choice to fall back. If only one or two of them falls back while the rest stays at A, then it's our chance in turn to group up and kill them in 2v3 or 2v4s, and retake A by force. Or if all of them comes to B, then 3 people should be taking 4 of them temporarily, while the assassin goes back to A, retake it (A, B, C all ours now), and then join up at mid to make it a 4v4.
Of all the possible choices, the team made the worst choice. And that's when you fall into a situation where it feels like you're always being ganked.
But remember, the end-result being a "gank", isn't because the enemies made some fantasy gank squad."
It's because your team, was simply, more stupid and weaker than they.
Another example of horrible losses: exact same situation as explained.
Stupid people all flocking to the side zone of A despite enemies already nearly entrenched there. B and C enjoys a long, most productive point generation for the enemy team.
Without brains, your team loses, your people die, the rest of the surviving people get "ganked".
THINK.
(ps) got a new account, because my old account had problems and even the mods couldn't fix it.
Senior Member
this was always my thing, if their team is running round in a pack of 4. it means they are not defending point, who your team can always cap the other two. sure you are going to get ganked and die, but in the end you will win.
thing is these days people are more concerned with their precious K/D ratio than winning.
Senior Member
Dominion is all about speed, teamwork, and initiative. "Defending" a point rarely works. The base mentality for Dominion is not "defend zones", but rather "if they take 1 zone, we take the other 2 to win".
In the situation so often repeated in Dominion as explained in prior post, the recommended method to turn the situation around is not to flock to your closest zone to take it back -- what you should be going for is "take the other two zones and draw the enemies out".
Situation1: Start of game
● The game starts
Situation2: First move
● By far, this is currently the most recommended "first move"
● This is because the outcome of the mid-zone B isn't affected much by initial numbers.
● Instead, each team going to their closest zone helps secure it fast
● It also offers initial "start-up bonus" renown to the players before the real fight begins
● If you see nobody going to your closest zone on start of match, you can assume you're stuck with newbies
Situation3: Things go bad
● Things went bad.
● After both team took their closest zone, a fight happened at mid.
● 3 of your team members are dead, the opponents only lost one.
● The surviving opponents make their way to A
Situation4: Enemies dominate
● Inevitably, this happens.
● The respawned oppnent comes and pushes rest of mid-zone, takes it.
● The other opponents take A.
● All the points are controlled by the opponents now.
Situation5: How to LOSE
● This is your fast-track path to losing the game.
● After respawn, without thinking your team goes to A.
● Ever ask yourself "why?" Because it's closer?
● But of course all the surviving opponents are there as well, grouped up and ready.
● So the fight at A is going to take a LONG time.
● Except mid and C is controlled by your opponents. They generate points.
● Your team generates no points at all.
● The more you flock to A, the more THEY flock to A as well. The fight takes longer. The score parts wider.
Situation6: What you should be doing
● Ignore A. Blow past the opponents standing "guard" at A.
● NO FRICKIN' REASON AT ALL TO GO BUTT YOUR HEADS INTO WHERE THE OPPONENT IS ALREADY ENTRENCHED AND READY
● First respawned goes straight to C
● Rest respawned go to mid to push it back as fast as possible.
Situation7: Turn the tables
● Hit where they are unprepared
● Control 2 zones so that they have no choice but to retreat
● Your chance to retake A is not when they are all ready and defending it. It's when they can't afford to defend it.
Situation8: Situation reversed
● The repetition of this scenario in minor varieties, is what constitutes the very basic of Dominion tactics.
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Great posts! I only wish more players used their brains as much as their thumbs.
Teamwork is obviously crucial to Dominion. Sometimes I can get a team of randoms in line by speaking to them or using Quick Chat. Often, however, there's at least one player with his/her own agenda and/or believes that his/her decisions are better. Or, he/she is just a noob without a clue.
I do believe that there are some circumstances wherein sitting on a point is helpful, but in general, I agree with the OP. Also, I appreciated the second post. Though I'm not one of them, some people need that sort of visual in order to understand.
A balanced and varied team composition is also fairly important. Now if you know that one of your opponents always uses a certain character, it's okay to counter-pick him/her. In general, however, it's rarely a good idea to take more than one, let alone THREE OR FOUR of the same class. Variety helps keep the enemy guessing.
My advice: during character select (and really always,) PAY ATTENTION! You can see who your teammates have chosen. If your teammate chooses a Vanguard, and you really wanted to take a Vanguard, suck it up, and choose a different class. If Vanguard and Assassin are already taken, BE A TEAM PLAYER and take a Heavy! If your teammate takes an Orochi, and you wanna' prove that you're a better Orochi, wait until you're on opposite teams. And, for the love o' God, don't take the same character if your teammate's is of higher rep.
Be observant. Note which team has control of which points and their value. Know where your teammates and opponents are. Check the scoreboard if you're unsure of who's alive. Notice the position of the icons, and pay attention to quick chat messages. Send up a beacon if you're 1v2, even if you're confident, because 1v2 can quickly become 1v3. And if your teammate(s) is/are outnumbered in the distance, don't always assume it's best to sit on a +2 point. Sometimes all it takes for them to prevail and prevent a 15 sec re-spawn is for the enemy to be distracted by one more player. Plus, NOT BEING KILLED IMPROVES TEAM MORALE.
Know your role. If you're an assassin, especially a Shinobi, you're the fastest character on the map. You should be the first to respond. Teammate outnumbered? Assassin's first on the scene. Team just started to break? Assassin's the first to the Rally point. If you're a Vanguard, I generally expect you to be controlling B. If you're a Heavy, I expect you to be able to defend yourself against multiple enemies until help arrives. And if you're a Hybrid-needs of the team. Don't get stuck on one task. Be adaptable, and go where the team needs you.
Finally, sometimes you need to accept that you're gonna' lose. That time is after your last teammate is dead and you've said your "Good Fight!"s. Until that time, don't give up. I've come back from Breaking with a 500 point deficit to win the match. Cluttering the Quick Chat with "Wow"s during a crucial moment isn't helping anyone.
Okay, I'm sorry fellas. I really didn't mean to go on this long. Good fight!
Originally Posted by Haplo_Bane Go to original postOriginally Posted by kweassa1 Go to original postDominion is all about speed, teamwork, and initiative. "Defending" a point rarely works. The base mentality for Dominion is not "defend zones", but rather "if they take 1 zone, we take the other 2 to win".
In the situation so often repeated in Dominion as explained in prior post, the recommended method to turn the situation around is not to flock to your closest zone to take it back -- what you should be going for is "take the other two zones and draw the enemies out".
Situation1: Start of game
● The game starts
Situation2: First move
● By far, this is currently the most recommended "first move"
● This is because the outcome of the mid-zone B isn't affected much by initial numbers.
● Instead, each team going to their closest zone helps secure it fast
● It also offers initial "start-up bonus" renown to the players before the real fight begins
● If you see nobody going to your closest zone on start of match, you can assume you're stuck with newbies
Situation3: Things go bad
● Things went bad.
● After both team took their closest zone, a fight happened at mid.
● 3 of your team members are dead, the opponents only lost one.
● The surviving opponents make their way to A
Situation4: Enemies dominate
● Inevitably, this happens.
● The respawned oppnent comes and pushes rest of mid-zone, takes it.
● The other opponents take A.
● All the points are controlled by the opponents now.
Situation5: How to LOSE
● This is your fast-track path to losing the game.
● After respawn, without thinking your team goes to A.
● Ever ask yourself "why?" Because it's closer?
● But of course all the surviving opponents are there as well, grouped up and ready.
● So the fight at A is going to take a LONG time.
● Except mid and C is controlled by your opponents. They generate points.
● Your team generates no points at all.
● The more you flock to A, the more THEY flock to A as well. The fight takes longer. The score parts wider.
Situation6: What you should be doing
● Ignore A. Blow past the opponents standing "guard" at A.
● NO FRICKIN' REASON AT ALL TO GO BUTT YOUR HEADS INTO WHERE THE OPPONENT IS ALREADY ENTRENCHED AND READY
● First respawned goes straight to C
● Rest respawned go to mid to push it back as fast as possible.
Situation7: Turn the tables
● Hit where they are unprepared
● Control 2 zones so that they have no choice but to retreat
● Your chance to retake A is not when they are all ready and defending it. It's when they can't afford to defend it.
Situation8: Situation reversed
● The repetition of this scenario in minor varieties, is what constitutes the very basic of Dominion tactics.Originally Posted by Vordred Go to original post
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I'm usually the dumb idiot one!Originally Posted by kweassa1 Go to original post
IMO keeping one of the control points and fight for the Front, preventing the enemy from farming the minions, are the keys to victory.
And never left the front unatended to rush into the second control point.
Interesting tips however.
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