Suggestion: Tech-rolling. | Forums

[Halvtand]

What is the problem?
The problem is an old one, and started way back when we first learned, the hard way, that not dodging Valkyrie's sweep would lead to a hard knock on the head that could not be defended against. Players flooded the forums, outraged. Most people would think that they were mad about the knockdown ability, but they were in fact mad about having control taken away from them, and left in a state where they can do nothing to prevent further incoming damage. The same argument can be applied to characters that have moves causing knockdown in revenge; Conqueror, Valkyrie, and Warlord to name a few. Once they get the first knockdown the opponent have no way to prevent the rest of the chain. With season 2 came Centurion, who truly excels at knocking people over, so much so that he has a special attack that can only target people on the ground, and is also given a free knockdown if he hits with a charged unblockable heavy.
The problem is not that the knockdown ability exists, it is that once it has been triggered there is no salvation for the opponent.

Other fighting games.
For Honor is at its core a fighting game. It is by no means the only such game that features a knockdown state or effect.
However, in most other games there is some kind of benefit to getting knocked down. It could be that you interrupt the other person's combo, that you yourself can only be hit by certain attacks, you might be able to decide when to get up and thus potentially turn the fight or you might be given a rising attack to prevent the other player from keeping the initiative. It is however mostly a bad thing to get knocked down as you are unable to properly defend against incoming attacks.

For Honor.
For Honor has the knockdown state, but it is only a weakness. You do not get to defend until some time during the rising animation. All attacks can hit a knocked down opponent and it features chains that can keep a knocked down opponent down and susceptible to "free" attacks. Attacks can only be made after fully rising. With characters that are really good at knocking people down in the game, something needs to be done. My suggestion is to introduce tech-rolling.

What is tech-rolling?
Tech-rolling is a ye olde fighting game-term for a game mechanic that allows a player to cancel a knockdown attempt, usually by inputting a direction and "jump" or "dodge" at the exact moment the character model makes contact with the ground. A successful tech-roll significantly reduces the time the character spends unable to fight back as it forces an immediate rising state usually animated as some form of combat roll, thus the term tech-rolling.

How will that help?
Tech-rolling would help players to escape both revenge-fuelled knockdown-chains and other characters that can spam knockdown moves. Triggering it at the right time could also potentially be used to punish knockdown-using players that commit to a follow-up attack too soon, forcing them to think before they act. As there already is a roll in the game with certain properties it could also potentially lower the occurrences of things like GBs at the first possible frame after rising and players being slowly inched toward an edge to be thrown off. This because the roll is immune to GBs and repositions the character.

Balance?
Of course, Tech-rolling should not be available for everything. Being thrown into a wall and stunned should not be avoidable by rolling. I also suggest that the ability costs stamina and is restricted when in the exhausted state.

[Chojja_]

You forgot to mention one important point. In others fightings games Street fighter, KOF, BlazBlue etc if you get knockdown its because you either got hit by a sweep, an anti air move, a throw and some others specific moves.
The difference is the mentioned moves does damage. Then you have to decide if you want to roll out, block etc. On the other hand the valkyrie sweep only inflict stamina damage by itself.

So i understand your idea and i personally love it, but that would make sense if the valkyrie sweep did actual damage. (im not a valkyrie player)

But it would be a good solution in 4v4 to prevent perma knock down.

Btw you could be interested by this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8w_OYIxhlw

Explanation of various wake up option in Soul Calibur (i picked a 3D fightings games exemple since its closer to for honor than 2D ones)

[Halvtand]

You forgot to mention one important point. In others fightings games Street fighter, KOF, BlazBlue etc if you get knockdown its because you either got hit by a sweep, an anti air move, a throw and some others specific moves.
The difference is the mentioned moves does damage. Then you have to decide if you want to roll out, block etc. On the other hand the valkyrie sweep only inflict stamina damage by itself.

So i understand your idea and i personally love it, but that would make sense if the valkyrie sweep did actual damage. (im not a valkyrie player)

But it would be a good solution in 4v4 to prevent perma knock down.

Btw you could be interested by this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8w_OYIxhlw

Explanation of various wake up option in Soul Calibur (i picked a 3D fightings games exemple since its closer to for honor than 2D ones)

Thank you for your input. While I cannot see why it would be terribly relevant if the knockdown move does damage in itself or not, it is a part of the discussion. I cannot speak for the Valkyrie, but I know that the Centurion's knockdown does damage, at least with a feat.

[Duskmare]

I think it's a great idea. I'm not sure such fluid movement would fit with a lot of the characters though. I mean, can you imagine a Conqueror or a Shugoki doing a nimble backward roll? :P

I would suggest that, for heavy characters, once knocked down you can stay on the ground for a short period of time and that during this time you can block incoming attacks and chose when to get up. You could also add the option for rolling to the sides while standing up. The standing up animation would have to be pretty fast though, otherwise the enemy would get a free hit.

Also, I'm not too sure about letting people roll away after a revenge knockdown. I mean, revenge is supposed to give you a distinct advantage when outnumbered, so being able to knock people over and take them out of the fight for a few seconds is totally within the spirit of revenge.

[Chojja_]

Thank you for your input. While I cannot see why it would be terribly relevant if the knockdown move does damage in itself or not, it is a part of the discussion. I cannot speak for the Valkyrie, but I know that the Centurion's knockdown does damage, at least with a feat.

In a standard fighting games, the sweep does damage and as a reward gave you an opportunity for a mix-up situation (that can be avoided with the good read)

In for honor, the valkyrie sweep does no damage and as a reward give you the opportunity to hit your opponent (garantee) If the follow-up hits after the sweep wasnt garantee then some balance adjustement would have to be done (like adding damage to the sweep)

As for the centurion you said it yourself its a feat that does the damages. But 4v4 and 1v1 are very different and i wish good luck to the ubi team to balance both at the same time.

Just one question when you talk about centurion knock down do you speak about the charged punch, or the multiple unblockable with revenge ?

[Halvtand]

I think it's a great idea. I'm not sure such fluid movement would fit with a lot of the characters though. I mean, can you imagine a Conqueror or a Shugoki doing a nimble backward roll? :P

I would suggest that, for heavy characters, once knocked down you can stay on the ground for a short period of time and that during this time you can block incoming attacks and chose when to get up. You could also add the option for rolling to the sides while standing up. The standing up animation would have to be pretty fast though, otherwise the enemy would get a free hit.

Also, I'm not too sure about letting people roll away after a revenge knockdown. I mean, revenge is supposed to give you a distinct advantage when outnumbered, so being able to knock people over and take them out of the fight for a few seconds is totally within the spirit of revenge.

That's a great idea. While a true combat-roll would fit the quicker characters like assassins, the heavies could get something else. At least for the shield-carrying heroes it makes sense for them to defend while down. Of course they should not be able to parry, allowing for the attacker to still do "guaranteed" damage.

About the revenge, it was never meant to give the lone player an advantage. This is why it was nerfed so heavily. The point was always to give the defender a chance to survive or get away. So think less in terms of "advantage" and more like "bridging the gap". With this mindset I think it is absolutely fitting to tech-roll away from a revenge knockdown. While that guy is rolling, you just turn around and run away. Or you chase the bastard down. Either way the battle is now different that it was a second ago.

In a standard fighting games, the sweep does damage and as a reward gave you an opportunity for a mix-up situation (that can be avoided with the good read)

In for honor, the valkyrie sweep does no damage and as a reward give you the opportunity to hit your opponent (garantee) If the follow-up hits after the sweep wasnt garantee then some balance adjustement would have to be done (like adding damage to the sweep)

As for the centurion you said it yourself its a feat that does the damages. But 4v4 and 1v1 are very different and i wish good luck to the ubi team to balance both at the same time.

Just one question when you talk about centurion knock down do you speak about the charged punch, or the multiple unblockable with revenge ?

Now I see what you're talking about, and it is a very good point. We do not want to make moves "pointless" by offering a way out of its effects. It is definitely something to keep in mind and if tech-rolling is implemented in the game I would not have a problem with giving the knockdown-moves damage as well. Perhaps not as much, but enough to make it worth it.

When I wrote that post I was mainly thinking about the charged punch.

[Halvtand]

Bump!
I want more people to see this.

[Daeyrat]

I'm all for tech roll as long as we can move a bit to the sides, otherwise it would be pointless. Without directions, it would be better to simply change the animation to a rolling one.