Turtling and Ganking | Forums

[nyrue]

these are the two things ruining this amazing game, connections are still a problem but as someone said recently on these forums players would be willing to overlook those problems if the game was fun too play,

so these two complaints pretty much split right down the middle between duels and Dominion, and these two things are fixable if you just take a look at the game and take the time too play it

TURTLING

so this one is pretty easy to fix and I've posted about this again and again and again, and I will continue to post about it until it is addressed, you need to increase the base chip damage on all heavy attacks 15-25% its thee quickest and most effective way to fix the defensive meta for all heroes, and you can do this without breaking 4v4 modes if you just apply the increase to enemies you are not currently locked onto,

not all heroes should do the same amount of heavy chip but all need an increase

some have argued that you need to nerf parry but I would disagree at least for the game as it is, passive defense i.e just blocking is the problem active defense i.e parry/dodge comes with its own set of risks and I believe is functioning as intended

GANKING

this is slightly harder to address at the moment but here are some small changes that I believe would make a huge difference

GB stun locking is a huge problem in this game, many players have realized by now that while in a group if one person spams GB over and over again it prevents your opponent from a. dodging and b. opens up windows where his/her guard is inactive and can be hit by other teammates, you could...

a. add invulnerability frames while being Guard Broken up until your guard returns upon successful Guard Break Counter

b. increase the distance GBC throws your opponent after a successful GBC so that they must close distance again before they can GB you again

c. increase recovery frames to your opponent after a successful GBC

d. all of the above

none of these changes would effect 1v1's in the least

someone else on these forums had a really cool idea as well, let us choose which direction our opponent is thrown after a successful GBC, or take it one step further and make GBC equal to a throw, so you can throw your attacker at other attackers giving you a brief reprieve,

unblockable spam is another problem with ganking and I honestly don't have an eloquent solution to this problem, best I can come up with is nerf the recovery frames on unblcokable attacks on a case by case basis, for example I would nerf the recovery frames on warlord and conqueror, but characters like shinobi centurion valk and nobushi, that's a bit tricky considering you can buffer the recovery frames and, tbh they shouldn't be as punishable as some of the other characters listed

finally two suggestions that some people are adamant not be implement but imo are vital to the health of the game

hero lock outs and friendly fire

I have nearly 500 hours logged on this game and total rep 40, for what its worth I still believe this game can be saved

[S0Mi_xD]

these are the two things ruining this amazing game, connections are still a problem but as someone said recently on these forums players would be willing to overlook those problems if the game was fun too play,

so these two complaints pretty much split right down the middle between duels and Dominion, and these two things are fixable if you just take a look at the game and take the time too play it

TURTLING

so this one is pretty easy to fix and I've posted about this again and again and again, and I will continue to post about it until it is addressed, you need to increase the base chip damage on all heavy attacks 15-25% its thee quickest and most effective way to fix the defensive meta for all heroes, and you can do this without breaking 4v4 modes if you just apply the increase to enemies you are not currently locked onto,

not all heroes should do the same amount of heavy chip but all need an increase

some have argued that you need to nerf parry but I would disagree at least for the game as it is, passive defense i.e just blocking is the problem active defense i.e parry/dodge comes with its own set of risks and I believe is functioning as intended

GANKING

this is slightly harder to address at the moment but here are some small changes that I believe would make a huge difference

GB stun locking is a huge problem in this game, many players have realized by now that while in a group if one person spams GB over and over again it prevents your opponent from a. dodging and b. opens up windows where his/her guard is inactive and can be hit by other teammates, you could...

a. add invulnerability frames while being Guard Broken up until your guard returns upon successful Guard Break Counter

b. increase the distance GBC throws your opponent after a successful GBC so that they must close distance again before they can GB you again

c. increase recovery frames to your opponent after a successful GBC

TURTLING

Adressing only block is stupid.
Even if you give every hero the reflex block from Shinobi and increase the chip dmg to 50%.
I could still easy turtle parry you to win

100% Ubi will change the reward for heavy parries.
In my opinion this is a good change but it isn't done with this one, you could still parry every heavy and follow up with a light and parry lights for the higher reward.

I think that both needs to be adressed, blocking and parry.




GANKING

I agree on B

A
.... would take the tactical advantage away from GB to go on somebody to help them.
Also if some else attacks the enemy you GBed the stun will be gone and he is free, so only if you hit at the same time like your team mate, if not he will only take one hit.

B
... would be a great idea to slow down GB spam abit.
It would also affect 1v1 in a good way, because the enemy can't make the typical GB spam, and instead of GB tracking you it would miss.

Take a look here
https://youtu.be/2DaVkId1O3o?t=19s

C
... Would be already applied with B.
If you push your enemy further away, he travels longer = longer recovery (only some 100ms) but still this would help in general against constant GB spam

[nyrue]

TURTLING

Adressing only block is stupid.
Even if you give every hero the reflex block from Shinobi and increase the chip dmg to 50%.
I could still easy turtle parry you to win

100% Ubi will change the reward for heavy parries.
In my opinion this is a good change but it isn't done with this one, you could still parry every heavy and follow up with a light and parry lights for the higher reward.

I think that both needs to be adressed, blocking and parry

the skill gap between blocking and parrying is huge, some players like I and perhaps yourself are absolutely amazing at parrying literally everything that comes our way, but 95% of the community is not, and i'm betting when you fight a really good player who feints and tries to be unpredictable you, like myself have a harder time parrying 100% of the time, I have stated in previous threads that I believe parry is fine and it is indeed feinting that is the real problem, but regardless blocking is way too safe and something needs to be done

edit: the centurions feint is a good example of what i'm talking about, the timing on it is extremely tight

[S0Mi_xD]

the skill level required between blocking and parrying is huge, some players like I and perhaps yourself are absolutely amazing at parrying literally everything that comes our way, but 95% of the community is not, and i'm betting when you fight a really good player who feints and tries to be unpredictable you like myself have a harder time parrying 100% of the time, I have stated in previous threads that I believe parry is fine and it is indeed feinting that is the real problem, but regardless blocking is way too safe and something needs to be done

I understand what you want to say, but it somehow doesn't make that much sense.
Not touching Parry because not all player capable of this mechanic?

I agree with you that parry is something that needs to be practiced but i would say around 60-70% of the community is capable of parry ( 5 % is a bit exaggerated ^^)

(Funny how you think parry is ok and feinting needs a look and i think the exact opposite, that feinting is fine and parry needs a look ^^)

Feinting:

Disadvantage:
- limited to stamina you can't use it all the time, you will run out of stamina pretty fast, a feint does cost as much as a heavy attack, so if you attack and feint, you used the stamina for 2 heavies
- Feinting is also a mechanic with a centain amount of depth, if your enemy doesn't fall for a feint you will get hit most of the time

Advantage:
+ your attacks will be harder to predict
+ it's the only real tool to counter parries

Parry:
Advantage:
+ Parry doesn't cost stamina - it is limitless
+ Parry on light gives most chars their strongest heavy for free
+ Parry in general gives a free heavy and a free GB
+ Parry drains 1/3 of the attackers stamina
+ knocks down enemy when they are OOS
+ useable while OOS

Disadvantage:
-/+ IF you miss the parry you gets parried or hit, but you can still feint the missed parry and block fast enough.

So the only Drawback parry has is feint and you want it to be removed/limited.

Think about it.

[nyrue]

-/+ IF you miss the parry you gets parried or hit, but you can still feint the missed parry and block fast enough.

So the only Drawback parry has is feint and you want it to be removed/limited.

no I don't want it removed or limited I want it improved, I think we may have misunderstood each other at some point, I believe feint isn't effective enough to punish people who parry a lot, combine that with a decent amount of chip and swinging at your opponent actually has a point now,

and the reason that i'm against any nerfs too parry is 4v4 modes, when taking on multiple opponents its the only way to get any damage out without absolutely getting hammered by your opponents, for example if you take away the free GB after heavy, which is pretty much all most people throw out in 1v2,3,4 I will no longer be able to throw opponents at each other and reposition myself proper, this game is probably one of the most difficult games to balance because your not just balancing for 1 game mode your balancing for 3, not to mention its pretty much a new genre altogether

feint changes are innocuous to 4v4 modes, if an opponent you are not locked onto feints at you he cannot parry that attack, and i'm not suggesting you remove the ability to feint in response to another players feint (at least not in this post) just make it a lot more difficult

[UbiJurassic]

Interesting and inventive ideas, nyrue! While we are already deep in the development of addressing the defense meta, we are always looking for unique ideas from the community!

[ChampionRuby50g]

Another small think to fix ganking: Don't let bots attack someone who is already been attacked, unless there has been a call for help via quickchat (Press LB on Xbox)

This would help out both sides in the fight immensely.
Not going to have so much congestion is a single area, you won't have a friendly bot swinging their weapon into your back like no tomorrow, resulting in you dying less and less ganking all round.

[Nekhros79]

A fix to ganking could by adressing the friendlly fire point.
What about losing renown points when you hit an ally?
I'm sure that it would prevent a lot of people that doesn't care about that right now.