1. #1

    Understanding Shin (discussion)

    The point of this thread is to Talk about the Shinobi and understand why he's both good and bad. but if you really want a tldr it's this: "Shinobi is "bad" because he doesn't fit into current for honor."

    In my opinion Shinobi was designed very well. For several reasons. It's the most fleshed out kit in the game. It has a theme that actually made it off of paper and into the game properly. It's a kit that actually properly works with aggression. and unlike the rest of the heros playing defensive or "turtling" isn't super powerful on shinobi. His ranged attacks are easily blocked. His guard decays too quickly to be used even some what passively. And his kick can't be used passively in close range because he'll be guard broken before the kick can even happen.

    That being said his design completely breaks the game. He dictates both the range of the fight but the pace of it from start to finish. No other hero in the game can legit go on the offense to fight shin. If he doesn't want to fight he doesn't have to. Further more because he's able to do so much from neutral you can't actually force the shinobi into a situation that lets you consistently punish him. There are 7 heros at this moment that can punish either his whiffed kick into heavy or whiffed kick into backflip. and of those 7 3 maybe 4 of them can punish both of those.

    If that wasn't bad enough his kick takes priority over all other unblockable bashes. He's got practically no recovery time for his entire kit. a lot of his kit doesn't require a landed hit. his wake up is so good his actions will probably go out before you can. meaning punishing even his ranged attacks could still end up in shins favor. IN short the shin rarely has to commit. and nearly anything you can punish him on is not consistent or available enough. (not to mention punishing his zone is practically not possible.)

    The balance the devs attempted with him was giving him the lowest health pool, making a majority of his kit unsafe (meaning it's not guarenteed,) being stamina intensive, and having low ish damage. Which. On paper. is enough. But in practice with the current for honor it's not enough. I can understand why the devs are hesitant to nerf his kick. It's still my personal stance that it should be nerfed. But I get why they don't want to jump on it. They kind of wrote themselves into a wall with his kit's design. Basically shin doesn't have to commit ever.

    Do we nerf the one decent kit in the whole game? Or do we make the game better? It seems the devs are going the other route and trying to address the defensive meta. Though if i'm honest...The rest of the kits need to be MASSIVELY looked over in order for shin to fit. The only "safe" nerf I think that exists for shin at the moment is adding recovery. this would mean his ranged attacks unless at max range would be far easier to punish. It would mean randomly thrown/spammed kicks would be more punishable by most of the cast. It would of course make the Shin more hesitant to engage. and IMO that's fine.

    All I know is that at least until the base kits get better in the aggression department Shinobi will continue to be frustrating for anyone who plays.
    I'd like to hear other people's thoughts. Do you think he needs a nerf? if yes how would you nerf him without ruining the kit? How would you make the game better so Shin can fit in?
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  2. #2
    First, quoting myself from another topic:

    Originally Posted by Vingrask Go to original post
    Dueling as Shinobi, I won the first round and saw players quit without even use the kick. Nerf the kick, people will still complain because they are lazy. I even made other Shinobis quit!

    And I lost for players who know how to turtle and screw any attempt I do.

    The big problem with Shinobi is that everything he does can be easy countered and punished. Not by the lazy players, of course, but by those who really learned the game. It is so hard indeed to catch the Shinobi which players tend to wait, and be the one in danger all the time, risking being punished while attack, is exhaustive.

    Even a failed kick offering a backflip to retreat, the match enter in a stalemate, because nothing works for any side. Since I'm the one who don't give a **** for just win, I'm the one being punished for try different moves and approuches. I do not count the bad players who cowardly stay back and are easy targets, but those who know how to turtle and punish. You try the kick, they dodge. You try fake a kick and GB, you get the heavy, next time they will try trade damage with you, and you, as Shinobi, will lose the fight if keep trading.

    I would trade the armor of the kick or the guaranteed heavy anytime just for another tool to open up a turtle, like be able to do real feints. At the end, I enter in the same situations as Shinobi as with my Berserker.
    Now, everything you said is a one sided point of view.

    I understand how annoying is do not be able to catch someone. It's like playing against the good Nobushis out there. What about the Lawbringer who never parry, making feint useless, and push you every block? Different ways to see the same problem: you can't touch the enemy and it is frustrating.

    When you put yourself on the other side, you can see the limitations and why the things happen as they happen. Shinobi don't do much damage without hit a heavy or the full combo, Lawbringer's attack is slow, etc. The entire kit of Shinobi is risky, except the kick if the enemy didn't decide to trade damage. With so little life pool and base defense, Shinobi needs the retreat options. He dictate the pace of the fight because his damn agility? Yes, as a Warden dictate the pace of a fight with his shoulders or a Valkyrie with her fast lights and vortexes. The same way you can't risk yourself too much against a Shugoki or Centurion.

    If one move change in Shinobi's kit, like devs said, a lot of things will need to change. You can't imagine how frustrating is for me not be able to do anything when the enemy counter all my moves and doesn't commit themselves to attack. It's not like only the Shinobi "doesn't commit", nobody in the fight does: me, because everything I do is easy to counter, my enemy because he/she is facing the better counter attacker of the game.
    Even so, players who just walk foward and feint give me fun and hard fights. When they manage to corner me the things get really intense.

    One of the big problems I see on the weak enemies is because they do not try. They stay away, probably crying, and do nothing but defend themselves or try moves without thinking, like Shinobi isn't different from anything else in the game. They are so easy that I see no fun. There is no challenge.

    Against a Shinobi you need to pressure. Pay attention, counter everything he/she does, and keep walking foward, looking the terrain, trying close the gap. After that, the backflip will lead to nowhere, the double dodge can't be used and now you have a light weight enemy right in front of you.

    I do not disagree something need to be done. Shinobi and Centurion are new, For Honor is a ever changing game, but all the cry, all the overreaction are just it, tears and screams.
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  3. #3
    Originally Posted by Vingrask Go to original post
    First, quoting myself from another topic:



    Now, everything you said is a one sided point of view.

    I understand how annoying is do not be able to catch someone. It's like playing against the good Nobushis out there. What about the Lawbringer who never parry, making feint useless, and push you every block? Different ways to see the same problem: you can't touch the enemy and it is frustrating.

    When you put yourself on the other side, you can see the limitations and why the things happen as they happen. Shinobi don't do much damage without hit a heavy or the full combo, Lawbringer's attack is slow, etc. The entire kit of Shinobi is risky, except the kick if the enemy didn't decide to trade damage. With so little life pool and base defense, Shinobi needs the retreat options. He dictate the pace of the fight because his damn agility? Yes, as a Warden dictate the pace of a fight with his shoulders or a Valkyrie with her fast lights and vortexes. The same way you can't risk yourself too much against a Shugoki or Centurion.

    If one move change in Shinobi's kit, like devs said, a lot of things will need to change. You can't imagine how frustrating is for me not be able to do anything when the enemy counter all my moves and doesn't commit themselves to attack. It's not like only the Shinobi "doesn't commit", nobody in the fight does: me, because everything I do is easy to counter, my enemy because he/she is facing the better counter attacker of the game.
    Even so, players who just walk foward and feint give me fun and hard fights. When they manage to corner me the things get really intense.

    One of the big problems I see on the weak enemies is because they do not try. They stay away, probably crying, and do nothing but defend themselves or try moves without thinking, like Shinobi isn't different from anything else in the game. They are so easy that I see no fun. There is no challenge.

    Against a Shinobi you need to pressure. Pay attention, counter everything he/she does, and keep walking foward, looking the terrain, trying close the gap. After that, the backflip will lead to nowhere, the double dodge can't be used and now you have a light weight enemy right in front of you.

    I do not disagree something need to be done. Shinobi and Centurion are new, For Honor is a ever changing game, but all the cry, all the overreaction are just it, tears and screams.
    Perhaps You're getting the wrong feel from my post. I don't want him nerfed into the ground. Nor am I saying it is impossible to beat a shin. I'm well aware of what his kit can and cannot do. I've played him a good amount and I wrote up a beginners guide on him which addressed the tools in his kit, gave some light to little known things about the kit. and some basic match up info against specific heros.

    I disagree about you saying no one has to commit. shin can cancel everything he does save light light. if his kick misses or lands he can back flip. He's the only kit in the game where he can do most things without having to confirm a hit. The most non commital thing other classes can do is with their heavy/zone. nobushi and conq are the only 2 who can "feint" their lights and their heavies. But in general if they do an action it has to happen. (baring those 2.) and now shin.
    I agree he needs escape tools. he needs range. he needs mobility. I just feel like at the current moment he's got a little too much. it's technically incorrect to say the fight resumes to neutral if he back flips. since you can get both a free charged heavy or a free charged GB after a flip. Going back to neutral from an evasive move is only real in the form of the double back roll.

    You are correct that most of his kit is punishable. The point though is that since it all starts from neutral and he can mix his entire kit basically into and onto itself there isn't a reliable way to force a shin into anything. You can't initiate against a shin. he'll just double dodge away until he's ready to do something. Warden doesn't dictate the fight with his shoulders. they don't have range. and he's only got 2 options unless you are overly aggresive. than parry is an option. either way. Same with valk. Shin has range AND mobility. which is why he dictates the fight.

    I would really like to see who you fight. because Whenever I play shinobi The only time I lose is if I rely too much on one thing. If i'm constantly changing what i'm doing I haven't lost. Versus when I play against a shinobi the only time they beat me is If I try to parry literally all their ranged attempts. If I sit back and dodge their kicks/trade (depending with who i'm playing as) and just block their ranged options I really don't lose. I've fought 2 maybe 3 decent shinobi who not only use their full kit. but they change everything all the time. The engagement distance. what they follow up with and when. etc.

    I will redirect my post to this last statement here: "i'm not asking for him to be nerfed hard. Nor am I saying he's broken. I'm merely stating that his design doesn't fit into how for honor plays currently. and that's why he can be considered a problem."
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  4. #4
    I've been playing Shinobi quite a bit since the public release, and I've found that I have more fun if I just ignore all of the stupid things like ranged attacks and kicks (pretty much play like a PK I guess). It makes him feel more like he actually fits into the game properly, instead of a silly turtle monster. The only problem is his heavy is slow as sin, and getting 2 heavies in a row for the combo attack is damn near impossible. I think what he needed was more love for the deflect, and less love for the ranged attacks.

    These new characters with their devastating chain attacks just feel like they don't really fit the design philosophy that most of the other characters fit into imo.
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  5. #5
    We.the.North's Avatar Banned
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    These new characters with their devastating chain attacks
    What chain attacks does the Shinobi has ?? Shinobi has one follow up after each of his different kicks that doesn't do damage. Remember, the kick by itself does NO damage and thus, all the "combos" are relatively weak, even the Sickle Rain mix up (with a single hvy after a ranged GB). Afterward, everything can be stopped. A double dash + ranged hvy does 25 damage. That's hardly game breaking. Granted, it's very hard to stop him, but the low damage output makes it fair. Even if Shinobi does this successfully 3-4 times, Shinobi still has the incredibly big weakness of being complete trash when outnumbered 2vs1 (way more squishy and no real tools in his kit to deal with that kind of situation, outside of procing revenge which can be hard when you get 2-3 shotted). In 2v1, the double dash + ranged hvy will lock you in place long enough for the other guy to punish you hard, way harder than the 25 damage you just did.

    In my eyes, in a 4v4 game, Shinobi is in a good place right now. But he might be a little over the top in duels, I'll agree to that ... but not by much.

    It's not like a Centurion with Haymaker Feat doing 30 + 20 + 35 = 85 damage from a single charged heavy combo. Now THAT is overpowered stupid.
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  6. #6
    UbiJurassic's Avatar Community Manager
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    Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
    The point of this thread is to Talk about the Shinobi and understand why he's both good and bad. but if you really want a tldr it's this: "Shinobi is "bad" because he doesn't fit into current for honor."

    In my opinion Shinobi was designed very well. For several reasons. It's the most fleshed out kit in the game. It has a theme that actually made it off of paper and into the game properly. It's a kit that actually properly works with aggression. and unlike the rest of the heros playing defensive or "turtling" isn't super powerful on shinobi. His ranged attacks are easily blocked. His guard decays too quickly to be used even some what passively. And his kick can't be used passively in close range because he'll be guard broken before the kick can even happen.

    That being said his design completely breaks the game. He dictates both the range of the fight but the pace of it from start to finish. No other hero in the game can legit go on the offense to fight shin. If he doesn't want to fight he doesn't have to. Further more because he's able to do so much from neutral you can't actually force the shinobi into a situation that lets you consistently punish him. There are 7 heros at this moment that can punish either his whiffed kick into heavy or whiffed kick into backflip. and of those 7 3 maybe 4 of them can punish both of those.

    If that wasn't bad enough his kick takes priority over all other unblockable bashes. He's got practically no recovery time for his entire kit. a lot of his kit doesn't require a landed hit. his wake up is so good his actions will probably go out before you can. meaning punishing even his ranged attacks could still end up in shins favor. IN short the shin rarely has to commit. and nearly anything you can punish him on is not consistent or available enough. (not to mention punishing his zone is practically not possible.)

    The balance the devs attempted with him was giving him the lowest health pool, making a majority of his kit unsafe (meaning it's not guarenteed,) being stamina intensive, and having low ish damage. Which. On paper. is enough. But in practice with the current for honor it's not enough. I can understand why the devs are hesitant to nerf his kick. It's still my personal stance that it should be nerfed. But I get why they don't want to jump on it. They kind of wrote themselves into a wall with his kit's design. Basically shin doesn't have to commit ever.

    Do we nerf the one decent kit in the whole game? Or do we make the game better? It seems the devs are going the other route and trying to address the defensive meta. Though if i'm honest...The rest of the kits need to be MASSIVELY looked over in order for shin to fit. The only "safe" nerf I think that exists for shin at the moment is adding recovery. this would mean his ranged attacks unless at max range would be far easier to punish. It would mean randomly thrown/spammed kicks would be more punishable by most of the cast. It would of course make the Shin more hesitant to engage. and IMO that's fine.

    All I know is that at least until the base kits get better in the aggression department Shinobi will continue to be frustrating for anyone who plays.
    I'd like to hear other people's thoughts. Do you think he needs a nerf? if yes how would you nerf him without ruining the kit? How would you make the game better so Shin can fit in?
    Thanks for this great post! It's always great to get all-encompassing feedback on the good and bad of a hero in the game. Part of the hesitance to nerf Shinobi's kick right off the bat was because the calls for nerfs were coming before the entire community had the opportunity to try and understand the in's and out's of the Shinobi. Now that he's available to everyone, our team will start getting a more complete picture based on the increased feedback and data that has become available.

    (Also nice DS2 reference in your name. Great boss, but I try to forget DS2 exists )
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  7. #7
    I agree with OP.
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  8. #8
    We.the.North's Avatar Banned
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    Originally Posted by MasterChiefPON Go to original post
    I agree with OP.
    And I disagree because the OP has a tunnel vision into 1v1 and fail to notice how horribly weak the Shinobi is in group fights. All it takes is for one character you are not focused on to flank the Shinobi and that Shinobi will start dodging around unable to kick anything because the person he doesn't kick would punish him harshly, while also getting dangerously close to out of stamina because to escape properly, that Shinobi would have to double dash which cost a lot of stamina. Not to mention in group battle, people pop revenge way more frequently and again, a single "auto parry" from revenge activation will knock the Shinobi on the ground and you can litteraly one shot him easily.

    Shinobi is in a good place at the moment. The fast recovery makes sense considering his low hp. If you want him to be as punishable as the other characters in the game while still keeping his 90 hp, then you clearly just want that character gone entirely. remember, the damage output from his kit is quite low actually compared to other characters ... so let him keep his recovery ffs, he's already squishy enough.

    Shinobi has fast recovery frames, Lawbringer has 150 hp, Conqueror has superior block, ... Characters need to be different for the game to be interesting.
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  9. #9
    Originally Posted by We.the.North Go to original post
    And I disagree because the OP has a tunnel vision into 1v1 and fail to notice how horribly weak the Shinobi is in group fights. All it takes is for one character you are not focused on to flank the Shinobi and that Shinobi will start dodging around unable to kick anything because the person he doesn't kick would punish him harshly, while also getting dangerously close to out of stamina because to escape properly, that Shinobi would have to double dash which cost a lot of stamina. Not to mention in group battle, people pop revenge way more frequently and again, a single "auto parry" from revenge activation will knock the Shinobi on the ground and you can litteraly one shot him easily.

    Shinobi is in a good place at the moment. The fast recovery makes sense considering his low hp. If you want him to be as punishable as the other characters in the game while still keeping his 90 hp, then you clearly just want that character gone entirely. remember, the damage output from his kit is quite low actually compared to other characters ... so let him keep his recovery ffs, he's already squishy enough.

    Shinobi has fast recovery frames, Lawbringer has 150 hp, Conqueror has superior block, ... Characters need to be different for the game to be interesting.
    Not that I am of the thought he needs heavy nerfing, but I keep seeing people saying that shinobi isn't viable in 4v4 to the point someone going on about how the shinobi gets one shotted made me feel they must have been going for light-light the whole match. I've made it out of dominion with a 9-0 k/d score in the past just by staying on the edges of fights, swinging out charged heavies and disrupting chains of attacks on my allies. You have to have your head on a swivel and hope they don't get a four man crush steamrollling through the map but he is plenty viable. Like you say, in a pretty good place all in all outside of possibly the kick needing looking at in some way without breaking it.
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  10. #10
    We.the.North's Avatar Banned
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    I've made it out of dominion with a 9-0 k/d score in the past just by staying on the edges of fights, swinging out charged heavies
    I was in fact discussing this with a friend this morning while playing some dominions. I was telling him how I was worried if there was a "Matrix" showing the KDA of Shinobis in Dominion and if Ubisoft was basing their buff / nerf on that. Shinobis staying safely on the edge of fight, jumping in with an occasionnal kick when it's safe then staying once again at ranged ... then turning around and fleeing if their teamate dies and they dont want to die outnumbered.

    All this staying safe and running when outnumbered is sure to give the Shinobi an artificially boosted KDA. But in terms of real contribution, I'm not sure the KDA is the best way to judge if a Shinobi is a good character to have on your team or not.

    If you look at my Heroes Score, my Shinobi has the highest KDA and highest KD out of all the characters I've played. Yet, I still believe my Valkyrie is the best character to bring in Dominion, especially since she's extremly good at winning outnumbered fights with Javelin and her second feat massively boosting her atk/def when she gets a kill. Even tho my KDA is lower, the Valkyrie feels like I can hold points much better and earn way more points for my team.

    https://fhtracker.com/profile/pc/We.the.North/heroes
    Valkyrie : 3.18 KDA ; 2.15 KD
    Shinobi : 4.59 KDA ; 2.68 KD



    TLDR : Despite having a high KDA, Shinobi is actually weak in Dominion because he doesn't hold points that well and thus, doesn't contribute to the team's total score as much. He gets his high KDA by running from unfair fights, so it's an illusion.
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