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[CaynAldan]

But deflect does have good reward... the Hurricane Blast deals a lot of damage for one hit, if they dodge sideways, you can cancel by grab and land a heavy or two top light.
Yes Orochi doesn't have a good opener, but thats where feints comes in, you use feints to force your opponent to make a move, and then counter said move.
Katana is not a weapon of speedy combo, but much more of a precision and accuracy. Look up some actual historical videos about katana and you'll see.

It's easier if i show you in-game do you play on PC?

It isn't better than parry, and feint is a basic mechanic of every hero. In fact high rep duels is fenting and feinting. It should be an aid not the main form of "attack"

Everytime you deflect, you could parry for greater reward, and your are risking a free GB.

Every time you feint, your are using stamina for some that a lot of heros can do in cheapest way. And it isn't very useful because your quick attacks are only top or ZA.

[MisterGuyMan]

We have to balance the game as a competitive game not as a historic simulator. Historically, medieval fighting was dominated by offense and grappling so this feint-fest shouldn't actually be a thing. If GB was just buffed across the board for everyone the game would be so much better. Make it deal stamina and/or health damage even when countered and the game would actually have a mechanic to get past turtlers.

Honest an elbow/thing that just dealt stamina damage would be fine by me. I just need something to pressure turtlers to get them moving out of their defense mentality. I'd be absolutely happy with a buffed Storm Rush and this hypothetical elbow/knee thing so long as the top tier was also nerfed a little.

[Existentialmeme]

It isn't better than parry, and feint is a basic mechanic of every hero. In fact high rep duels is fenting and feinting. It should be an aid not the main form of "attack"

Everytime you deflect, you could parry for greater reward, and your are risking a free GB.

Every time you feint, your are using stamina for some that a lot of heros can do in cheapest way. And it isn't very useful because your quick attacks are only top or ZA.

Yes Feint is a basic mechanic, I'm saying orochi should be a character that focuses on feints, just like Kensei, so maybe less stamina consumption for feints on orochi would be good.

how does parry have a greater reward exactly? Hurricane Blast deals more damage than top heavy, and if you're playing 4v4, with the slip through feat, you can deal so much more damage with a deflect.

how are you risking a free GB with deflect? that only happens when you dodge at the wrong time, normally you try deflect when they attack ( they won't be able to grab during attack animation) even if you missed the deflect, you can still use Zephyr slash to punish them.
Deflect takes a lot of practice to get good at, its a high risk high reward move.

[Existentialmeme]

We have to balance the game as a competitive game not as a historic simulator. Historically, medieval fighting was dominated by offense and grappling so this feint-fest shouldn't actually be a thing. If GB was just buffed across the board for everyone the game would be so much better. Make it deal stamina and/or health damage even when countered and the game would actually have a mechanic to get past turtlers.

Honest an elbow/thing that just dealt stamina damage would be fine by me. I just need something to pressure turtlers to get them moving out of their defense mentality. I'd be absolutely happy with a buffed Storm Rush and this hypothetical elbow/knee thing so long as the top tier was also nerfed a little.

By that concept you can literally just grab people to death... don't think you really thought this through

[MisterGuyMan]

By that concept you can literally just grab people to death... don't think you really thought this through

Why is that bad? I have no problem if people just die of exhaustion trying to fend off physical attacks. Worst case scenario make that last pixel of health or just add an extra animation on a kill. The CGB animation would probably work. A last hit could also just cause knockdown.

The way I see it, if you're solving a problem early, you expend almost no resources. If you just never decide to smoke, smoking isn't an issue for you. If you decide to smoke for decades then quitting will be hard. Here, if you stop GB early then use a light attack. If you let the enemy actually get his hands around you and you are just reacting to the attack, you should end up in the losing end of a trade if you counter guardbreak.

[lllWARCHILDlll]

Nobushi Rep 7, Orochi Rep 7

I greatly enjoy using both characters. At launch, the Nobushi was my main. Now, the Orochi is.

Under no circumstances should the Storm Rush be made an "unblockable" on the Orochi. And it's my main character. The move can be triggered with a swappable lock at a greater distance than the reach of all but the Shinobis weapons. Therefore, if made as an unblockable, every character other than the shinobi could be simply by spammed at a distance greater than they can even REACH. I know this because releasing the left trigger mid storm rush allows you to "roll away from the opponent you just performed it on". Activating storm rush at the correct time after rolling away from your opponent allows it... again. It's not all immediately, due to the AnvilNext button activated delays, but if you make it unblockable you will really really regret giving the Orochi that upgrade.

Next, due to the Orochi's timed block ability/ies... You really need to lock down the proper activation/deactivation timers. I honestly do not know why they, along with other characters in the game, are SO vastly poor. There are examples across the net, YouTube, Reddit, other... Where a proper block activation simply does not register. This is a game based on that as a main function... and it fails time and time again on the Orochi after releasing and returning to the same direction for repeated attacks in that direction.

When you removed the stats Sprint Speed, Feat cool down, and more... you basically left every player who DID have builds using the removed feats with all their time building those builds, wasted. I've been gaming for over 30 years, and I'm more than aware a EULA gives legal authority to a developer to make any changes they see fit regardless of if its at the expense of the consumers invested time (which is the most precious commodity since it can't be re-obtained), and money. What you SHOULD have done was place those stats by default on every character in the game, and set each character to increase those stats AS the characters level up via prestige. It's common sense the more any hero in the game fights a war the more that hero becomes "more experienced and improved" in their individuality with "skills". So simply put... Place the feats that you removed back into the game on each hero by default, with set gain levels based on the hero experience, so the more a hero is played, the more improvement transpires by default.

Regarding cool downs on feats...
There should've been a point system acquirable per level for each hero leveling to add obtained points to the default stats on each character so each individual player can customize the individual hero to specific scenarios. Example: the Orochi is a trained assassin. By the default stat that should have been on him and others, there should've been a point system where each player could opt to apply obtained points to increase his sprint speed, OR his ability to recharge some of his personal feats. Smh

The argument "that point system would make players overpowered" is because people "forget any/all additions via measurement, measured appropriately, can be applied appropriately". A scale of measurement is infinite when increased or decreased.

I'll come back at some point if adding anything to this thread of course. It would be easier, if the motivation for this game wasn't at such an all time low because it's been four months of extremely poor patching for the games connection problems that have literally driven off SO MUCH of the player base the game feels like it's on it's last legs shortly after it hit the shelves.

Makes me think there's money to be given for a developer by its corporate offices when a game takes a tale spin in sales and playable functionality. "This is the corporate offices here. Via our agreement with your branch in the company, we will reimburse your branch for all the expected revenue not achieved, since we assigned the games development cost to your branch and you've taken a huge financial loss due to the games unexpected failure". *smh

Almost every video of this game has been asking for Ubisoft "MONTREAL" to fix this game from then and still today.
•RODEY BROS "For Honor connection problems video"
https://youtu.be/RhVlKDW5r-U

[CaynAldan]

Yes Feint is a basic mechanic, I'm saying orochi should be a character that focuses on feints, just like Kensei, so maybe less stamina consumption for feints on orochi would be good.

how does parry have a greater reward exactly? Hurricane Blast deals more damage than top heavy, and if you're playing 4v4, with the slip through feat, you can deal so much more damage with a deflect.

how are you risking a free GB with deflect? that only happens when you dodge at the wrong time, normally you try deflect when they attack ( they won't be able to grab during attack animation) even if you missed the deflect, you can still use Zephyr slash to punish them.
Deflect takes a lot of practice to get good at, its a high risk high reward move.

If you want a hero uses more feints, put soft feints into his moveset. Actually you need to feint so much you just can do an attack.

Parry deals stamina damage, give you GB so you can throw or go for top heavy and ZA. And if you fail parry you can cancel with feint. If you fail with dodge you get GB:ed and you are punish, because you can't cancel dodge and you best reward is HB, if you are not stopped by a double light, chain spam with hyper armor(Berserker) or doged. You can cancel for GB, in that case you have got same as with a parry, but in more time and wasting more stamina.

In groups, if you parry, you parry all enemies at same time, but deflect you only deflect one, that's the reason we were talking about repositioning in deflect like shinobi, giving more mobility and a reason to use it

deflect window is narrower that parry one, there is no reason to try it.
And slip through... if you need a feat for a move to just be useful, you are doing something wrong. I mean, Cent jabs and throws are dangerous by its own, you don't need the feat for doing damage to make a big use of them

Shugoki throws are dangerous enough without feat for longer distance. Slip through is a good feat, but if you need it for deflect, a core mechanic of the character, to be some good... it's a problem

[Lord_Nirgal]

Back in beta storm rush could be canceled very late (just before the strike, and the running part covered more ground) giving the orochi the option to go for the damage, a gb or bait a parry; back then was considered op and so storm rush can now be canceled only in the first few steps. Considering that almost every other class has a mixup or a canceling mechanic i really don't see why storm rush cannot be reverted to the original version. (this alone could really improve the orochi not only making him more usefull but making him more fun)

Riptide strike is not only situational but very risky and not rewarding, you use it only to "show off", could be interesting if the startup of the move gave invulnerability like the startup of the hidden stance of the nobushi (this was suggested even in beta), and after a confirmed hit maybe give a free back dodge to reset (again like the nobushi ability to free dodge after a block). Better if you could change the direction of your attack or make the attack unblockable.

The deflect is ofc a joke, atm deflect mechanic is completly useless, the ability to deflect and go for a charged heavy that can be canceled doesn't compensate the risk of the move and the fact that even canceling for a guard break more often than not you will receive a light attack or a guard break yourself, against dodging attacks is completly pointless, so the defelect must be reworked and really i don't have an idea of what to do (the problem anyway isn't only of the orochi). I can at most think of a sort of crushing riposte done by deflecting, dealing massive damage very quickly (or a mix of damage and stun or stamina damage) for a well timed deflect but ofc such thing should have some kind of limitation (like the warden that can do that only on top attacks). Anyway deflecting should be preferable on assassins than parrying that's for sure, so deflects need to be powerfull.

Orochi needs something different to open the fight than top light / zone (imho zone attacks should be changed to not be so powerfull in duels anyway), a sort of improved feinting could be interesting being the orochi a counter attacker, maybe the ability to cancel a heavy into a light or a light into a special move could be interesting (ofc if failed should leave open the orochi for a punish).

In line with the counter attacker theme maybe giving increased damage on attacks connecting just before or just after an enemy attack? As i see it the orochi shouldn't try to block or parry at all but should force whiffs or deflect, at the same time should be able to harass an enemy that is too passive to force him to attack and risk a counter, the orochi shouldn't be too dangerous when on the initiative (dealing not so much damage) but should be at his best once the enemy tries to attack, if ignored should anyway be able to slowly wear the enemy down (death from 1000 cuts style).

[CaynAldan]

Sorry but i want to insist once more.
You can't make a counter-attacker without making him an excellent attacker.
You can't be a counter- attacker if opponent just doesn't attack and being completly logical and legit, if you know your foe it's a bad attacker, and when you attack is when your opponent can damage you the most... simply, just defend.

You need to be a good attacker to be a good "deflecter"

If you want a counter-attacker that who has no need for attacker, the right way is superior block, no deflect. You can check it out with valkyrie or WL

[ShadowStepped]

I agree with what you guys are saying. Despite my sarcastic response to the original poster of this conversation, I feel Orochi is in a good place overall. I agree that the Storm Rush should not be unblockable. I have no problem dodging it or even deflecting it as i have become a monster deflector and can deflect most attacks with the exception of those heroes i am not sure about the moves yet, ie Centurion who is op in my opinion, and Shinobi. With that said, making Storm Rush unblockable would be a death sentence for the slower less agile characters as timing would have to be almost perfect to counter. Keep in mind i only say this in a general sense as i have only played the orochi and am the type who picks one character and sticks with them no matter what or how frustrating it is initially. I would be happy with a poke or two. With the higher tier players, mixing things up is difficult because there are only a couple options which are going to punish you into oblivion. Seriously Ubisoft, weaken the Centurion a little bit. I am not talking all out nerf just some damage reduction or small frame delay. Seems like the only people who do not want a nerf of this hero are the ones who are playing him. For example, I was playing dominion the other day and this guy (wont mention any names, keeps me out of stamina) beats me and then messages me the famous message GIT GOOD. Although it amazes me at the spelling of "git" good not very good at spelling i guess, i am pretty good at this game to be honest i am roughly a 1.68 kd and a 2.39 kda. That being said i messaged him back and said, well since I need to get good show me how I will duel you and how about picking someone who isn't the centurion. Long story short, he would not. Well maybe, he just wants to play the centurion? Nope, as we talked he knew the centurion was a bit too much and said he's only gonna play him until it's fixed. My point being, i do need to practice more against the new characters and would the dude beat me again if he picked centurion? Maybe, or maybe not. But the fact the guy playing him admits he's op and isn't playing anyone else shows me just how silly this whole thing is. He is basing his "skill" based on exploiting the chain and stamina drain, nothing more. The centurion can keep punishing an opponent for high damage more so than anyone else. I get the idea of breaking the old meta but at least make it slightly even across the board.I cannot tell you how many times i played dominion and saw 2 or more centurions at the load up screen and said "yep, we may lose this one." Sure enough, its a punching, kicking, ganking cluster **** with everyone trying to avoid this monster. Shinobi, while annoying, is fairly balanced because if you can manage to hit him it hurts him. I have actually seen a whole team of players except for myself, up and leave a game when a couple of centurions pop that armor buff. Keep in mind to read this guys before everyone gets all butt-hurt about it. This is just my opinion from what i have experienced personally.I am sure there are those who feel differently so there is no reason to attack my ideas or get all pissy because i feel view things differently.