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  1. #1
    S0Mi_xD's Avatar Senior Member
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    Ubi - i need an answer for this - Defense Penetration!

    So, i have a question about this stat, because currently i work on my stat table and my gear.
    Today i saw that eric.pope posted the explaination for the Stats ... and i am afraid you messed this stat up.

    Originally Posted by eric.pope
    Defense Penetration

    - Defense Penetration allows your Hero's Attacks to ignore an amount of the enemy Hero’s Defense when attacking them.
    - Your Hero ignores as much of the opponent’s Defense as the value of the Defense Penetration is.
    So my question is, does it work like Quotation 1. or 2.?
    EDIT: I added a 3. Quotation - in this one i calculate both ways and show that 2. Quotation would make much more sense.

    1. Quotation

    Originally Posted by kweassa1917 Go to original post
    The DEFpen values seem to be a bit problematic, and now I understand why people have been observing that the incoming damage is much higher than before, and say that DEF was nerfed.

    According to this wonderful spreadsheet information, @lv21 your max DEF bonus is 14.1%, which a sum of DEF values combined from 3 pieces of gear. The problem is, from just 1 piece of gear, the "best" values for DEFpen is at 16.9%, and the "2nd" value is 12.7%. I recall someone mentioning the devs have said in a stream that DEFpen directly counteracts DEF in an additivie/subtractive way.. which means a single piece of gear that's set to either highest, or 2nd highest DEFpen stat will effectively nullify the result of 3 armor pieces invested for "best" DEF stats.


    To demonstrate, using my theoretic DMG calculation equation (not proved yet)...

    ● FINAL DMG = BASE DMG x {1 + (ATT - (DEF - DEFpen))}


    So let's assume some different situations:


    Situation 1
    Variables
    ● 3 pieces invested to max ATT = +18.3%
    ● DEFpen at 'worst' = -16.9%
    ● target has max DEF = 14.1%


    ▶ Attacker hits target wit 50 DMG attack. Final damage is... 50 x (1 + (0.183 - (0.141 - (-0.169))) = 50 x (1 - 0.127) = 43.65
    ▶ Even with MAX attack, if your DEFpen is negative, then you deal less damage than base damage.
    ▶ If worst DEFpen = Max ATT < Max DEF



    Situation 2
    Variables
    ● 3 pieces invested to max ATT = +18.3%
    ● DEFpen at '2nd' = 12.7%
    ● target has max DEF = 14.1%


    ▶ Attacker hits target wit 50 DMG attack. Final damage is... 50 x (1 + (0.183 - (0.141 - (0.127))) = 50 x (1 - 0.127) = 50.7
    ▶ With MAX attack and 2nd level DEFpen, then your damage is similar to base damage.
    ▶ If 2nd DEFpen = Max ATT = Max DEF



    Situation 3
    Variables
    ● 2 pieces invested to max ATT, 1 piece to 2nd ATT = +17.1%
    ● DEFpen at 'MAX' = 16.9%
    ● target has max DEF = 14.1%


    ▶ Attacker hits target wit 50 DMG attack. Final damage is... 50 x (1 + (0.171 - (0.141 - 0.169)) = 50 x (1 + (0.171 - 0) = 58.55
    ▶ With MAX DEFpen and two max ATT pieces, then your damage is higher than base damage.
    ▶ If MAX DEFpen = MAX DEFpen > Max DEF



    There's no reason to go max ATT gear. max DEF will always sufficiently negate it. But even if you don't go for all 3 weapons for max ATT, and you go for two max ATT and 1 max DEFpen, then that still beats 3 pieces of max DEF easily. My DMG equation isn't proved and its only a theory, but as long as the relative variables and how they work remain similar, then the relative results will also be similar.


    DEFpen is the way to go. There's no situation 3 x ATT piece would outperform a 2 x ATT piece plus 1 x max DEFpen setting... besides, the DEFpen value also (most probably) directly negates revenge DEF value as well. Basically, max DEFpen is the new "must" stat, because however your opponent wraps himself in armor, your max DEFpen will always make sure that it's still about as effective as fighting naked.


    (ps) Well, I have a guess as to when the "3 x maxATT" setting would outperform a "2 x maxATT / 1 x maxDEFpen" setting... my guess is if your target has very low ~ negative defense values, then against that person your 3 piece maxATT setting will deal bigger damage... but honestly, who'd eveyr roll with a super-low defense setting in the first place?

    2. Quotation

    Originally Posted by S0Mi_xD Go to original post
    Nice math done here.

    I thought about this issue as well, and we still don't know how Def Pen works for sure.

    First way like you theorie says:

    Def - Def Pen = End Def

    I don't belive it works like this because:
    A: It would make Defence Useless
    B: Devs stated, that Def Pen will affect Players with more Def much more, than with less Def.

    Because of B: i think Def Penetration will work more like this:
    (Also Def Pen will be calculated BEFOR ATK and DEF apply)

    Def -(Def x Def Pen) = End Def / effective Def

    Example:
    You have Max Def Pen 16,9% against Max Def 14,1% - so it would be multiplicated.

    Def Penetraton affecting:
    14,1 * 16,9% = 2,3829 ~ 2,4

    This would lead to:
    14,1 - 2,4 = 11,7 % A: 11,7 Def would be the defense which will affect the DMG

    Lets take the Def of an MAX balance build against a Max Def Pen:

    6,9 - (6,9 * 16,9% = 1,1661 ~ 1,2) = 5,7 End Def.

    And Max DEF Revenge:

    20,6 - (20,6 * 16,9% = 3,4814 ~3,5) = 17,1 End Def

    This way would be much more logical, and i assume Ubi has some intellegent people there.

    Pls don't say it is the first one .... this would make Defense useless .....


    2. Quotation

    Originally Posted by S0Mi_xD Go to original post
    As i think about def penetration it would only affect postive defense (because negativ defense would imply that you have no defense to "penetrate")

    But ok ....

    It would be really stupid this way, because everybody would use Def Penetration (except those who don't really know how it works)
    But Def Pen would be a MUST stat.
    The probleme is IF Def Pen really works like (a), it would make Def Stat and Revenge Def USELESS (like you say aswell)

    The max def on max lvl gear is 15,4%
    And the max def pen on max lvl gear would be around 18%....

    If Ubi would be really that stupid to make it work like this .....

    Also if it really would be like this:
    Variables
    ● 2 pieces invested to max ATT, 1 piece to 2nd ATT = +17.1%
    ● DEFpen at 'MAX' = 16.9%
    ● target has min DEF = -18.9%

    ▶ Attacker hits target with 50 DMG attack. Final damage is... 50 x (1 + (0.171 - (-0.189 - 0.169)) = 50 x (1 + (0.171 - 0) = 58.55

    It would make no sense, because what if you have Neg. Def and just the lowest def pen (from balanced stat), and don't forget negative Def Pen.
    - Def -18,9%
    - Def Pen of 8,5%
    - neg Def Pen of - 16,9%

    So if it really would work like this (i heard it aswell on the dev stream, that they said something like it will got to zero):
    1. -18,9% - (+ 8,5%) = 0
    2. -18,9% -(-16,9) = 0
    Do you really think it could work like this? This would defy any sense of logic.

    It would be, if it really is additive and subtractive, like this:
    50 x (1 + (0.171 - (-0.189 - 0.169)) = 50 x (1 + (0.171 + 0.358 ) = 76,45

    And now with neg. Def Pen:
    50 x (1 + (0.171 - (-0.189 - (-0.169))) = 50 x (1 + (0.171 + 0.02) = 59,55



    And now assume it would work like (b) the way i think it should work:
    Variables
    ● 2 pieces invested to max ATT, 1 piece to 2nd ATT = +17.1%
    ● DEFpen at 'MAX' = 16.9%
    ● target has MAX DEF = 14,1%

    50 x (1 + (0.171 - (0,141 - (0,141 * 0,169)))) = 50 x (1 + (0.171 -(0,141 - 0,024))) = 50 x (1 + (0.171 - 0,117 )) = 52,7

    Variables
    ● 2 pieces invested to max ATT, 1 piece to 2nd ATT = +17.1%
    ● DEFpen negative = -16.9%
    ● target has MAX DEF = 14,1%

    50 x (1 + (0.171 - (0,141 - (0,141 * -0,169)))) = 50 x (1 + (0.171 -(0,141 + 0,024 ))) = 50 x (1 + (0.171 - 0,165 )) = 50,3

    Variables
    ● 2 pieces invested to max ATT, 1 piece to 2nd ATT = +17.1%
    ● DEFpen at 'MAX' = 16.9%
    ● target has neg DEF = -18.9%

    50 x (1 + (0.171 - (-0.189 - (-0,189 * 0,169)))) = 50 x (1 + (0.171 -(- 0,189 - 0,032 ))) = 50 x (1 + (0.171 + 0,221 )) = 69,6

    Variables
    ● 2 pieces invested to max ATT, 1 piece to 2nd ATT = +17.1%
    ● DEFpen negative = -16.9%
    ● target has neg DEF = -18.9%

    50 x (1 + (0.171 - (-0.189 - (-0,189 * -0,169)))) = 50 x (1 + (0.171 -(- 0,189 + 0,032 ))) = 50 x (1 + (0.171 + 0,157 )) = 66,4
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  2. #2
    omg i am going to have a headache... so def pen better than attack?
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  3. #3
    Vordred's Avatar Senior Member
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    yeah there needs to be come clarification on how def pen really works
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  4. #4
    I dont know if how you are using the attack value in your equation is correct, but i can tell you quotation 1 is absolutely right about def penetration. Your rival defense will always be his defense value minus your def pen value, but the result can never be below 0. At May 4th Warriors den Damien explains it (exactly 30:00 minutes into the video in Twitch).
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  5. #5
    Draghmar's Avatar Senior Member
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    I'd go with 1 because I remember they said on stream that whatever you put in DEFpen lowers DEF up to min 0 DEF.
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  6. #6
    Maybe this is their way to counter the defensive meta? Everyone will have zero defense and +attack. So its like dual mode wuth more damage being done.
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  7. #7
    Ever since this stat was announced, I knew something like this would happen.

    It just confuses me why we needed such a stat in the first place. The attack stat should be the direct counter to the defence stat, not defence penetration. All they needed to do was buff the attack stat to make it on par with the defence stat. In Season 1, max defence was +30%, while max attack was +20%.
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  8. #8
    Originally Posted by Cito2009 Go to original post
    Maybe this is their way to counter the defensive meta? Everyone will have zero defense and +attack. So its like dual mode wuth more damage being done.
    Which will make people turtle even more to have an opportunity to apply guaranteed damage, instead of sometimes trying to take the initiative while being somewhat "forgiven" by the def stats in case of failed attempt ...
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  9. #9
    S0Mi_xD's Avatar Senior Member
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    I edited the Main Post, look into it again!
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  10. #10
    Originally Posted by Captain-Courage Go to original post
    Which will make people turtle even more to have an opportunity to apply guaranteed damage, instead of sometimes trying to take the initiative while being somewhat "forgiven" by the def stats in case of failed attempt ...
    Well there is talk of chip damage too, so that with no defense we will all drop faster. Maybe you'll have to choose between block damage and def pen?
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