Banned
I'm getting very tired of this defensive meta. I feel extremely punished for playing an aggressive hero and I grow more than tired of people specing 100% defense and just wait to block GB throw you off a ledge. (Overlook, worst, map, ever).
So, other than the long overdue raider update, I hope to hear good CONCRETE news about how Ubisoft intend to break this ******** of a defensive meta so we can go back to playing the art of battle instead of the art of turtling.
North
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Senior Member
Goodness, everyone wants everything yesterday these days.
Do you know how old this game is? Not counting the beta it isn't even three months old.In that time there have been, what, three patches? (I was here for two but people were moaning about the peacekeeper getting their deflect fixed to work as intended so assuming another). By all accounts, the defensive meta was not so much an issue in beta when people were just trying out movesets, but then yeah as soon as it goes open for all the win at any costs crowd comes in, so I would guess they had very little warning it would be an issue.
So that is three patches and one due next week,four patches in the first three months. And these patches have focussed on what people have been complaining about, on improving connectivity (and yes it has improved, not where it needs to be yet but making progress every patch) on the things that people have found most toxic (revenge, light spam, shoulder bash spam),and they said very clearly they tried to get get the raider buff into the last patch but testing had not been satisfactory, so what,you'd have rather a half baked attempt that didn't get revisited for a few patches? Defensive meta has been the least of their main concerns with what people have posted rage thread after rage thread about.
And the thing is we know they have things they are testing in the works, they have given us some idea on the ideas they have had over it,they have told us that they know it is an issue and they are working on it, but everyone wants what they want right now or else because they are such competent game designers themselves so surely if they say it can be done in two days it can be done in two days, right?
Come back with arguments about balancing and doing it all at light speed when you have put your own game out there, not until.
Senior Member
You realise, Candle, that games have internal testing, yeah? Are you really suggesting that everyone at Ubi, plus whoever they hired for QA, were all so incredibly **** at the game that never, over the years of development, did the turtle meta appear?
Because I've gotta say, that's probably a worse accusation than people just assuming they were lazy.
Banned
We indeed live within a generation of people with a small attention spam. After playing the game for 75 hours, I've reach a point where I can pin point something in the game that truely annoys me to the point I now leave games where I see I'm against turtles. Being against 2 warlords is an instant quit to menu for me now. So yes, I'd rather go play something else than stay in this defensive turtle meta. At the moment, it is MY greatest issue with the game. You are entitled to your opinion, this is mine. Turtles are now a game breaker for me at the moment and I'd rather go play something else. If change doesn't come sooner than later, I'll probably have lost all interest and just wont be back. You might not care, but Ubisoft do care since I speak highly of their game to my friends so they come play with me ... but I wont if I am not playing anymore.Goodness, everyone wants everything yesterday these days.
You have got to realise something : Nowadays, "big" game companies often release half finished products. The first "live" weeks of a game's release is like a massive beta test and of course, a lot of patches are going to come flying. Having multiple quick patch only shows how broken the game actually was when it released, it doesn't tell us Ubisoft is working hard, they just had lots of stuff to fix.Do you know how old this game is? Not counting the beta it isn't even three months old.In that time there have been, what, three patches?
That one is actually funny since I did use to be a game designer for Ubisoft Montreal. Assassin's Creed 2 is in my portfolio along with other smaller games. So I do understand how game design works, how long it takes ; and I still have friends at Ubisoft Montreal telling me what's happening behind the scenes. While I agree Ubisoft is working on stuff, directors sometimes decide to hold on changes for a very, very long time even if the playerbase is really angry and demanding. All it takes is on director blocking changes for only he knows why and For Honor will go nowhere if that happens.or else because they are such competent game designers themselves
Ever heard of Dr Boom (Dr 7) in Hearthstone and for how long the community raged over that card ?? Ya, Ben Brode never agreed to change anything about the card, going as far as posting on the forums that the card had been looked at and was deemed as "ok". The playerbase went nuts and we had to wait for many months before that card fell into "wild" territory. I love Ben and his Ungoro Rap on youtube, but boy did I hate him in Goblins vs Gnomes and further expansions. I have PTSD from piloted shredder and Dr Boom.
In other words, I know full well what "we're looking at the issue" means while we sometime have to wait MONTHS for something to happen. Sometime fixing stuff takes time, but sometime it's only one person just shutting the door to change.
I'm friends with the guys who won the Ubisoft Internal Tournament about 2 years ago. Back then, the defensive meta really didn't exist since playing defensively was nowhere as rewarding as it is now. The changes that made the defensive meta so good actually happened close to release. Now that the game has released, I play with them online and they tell me the game actually improved over the last couple of months, despite the defensive meta ... but they too dont like the defensive meta and would rather have it be tuned down a little. I just hope they'll fix it sooner rather than later.You realise, Candle, that games have internal testing, yeah? Are you really suggesting that everyone at Ubi, plus whoever they hired for QA, were all so incredibly **** at the game that never, over the years of development, did the turtle meta appear?
One thing for sure : A ranked mode cannot happen before the defensive turtle meta is fixed. Otherwise, ranked mode will be a failure and even more people will lose interest in the game.
Member
What would you suggest as a needed change towards the game to fix the turtle meta? as a lower tier player I never see that kind of play so I can't really think of anything that'd be a good fix to this issue without essentially changing how the entire game works.Originally Posted by We.the.North Go to original post
Defense meta has been described to me as essentially a feinting match with people taking little to no risks because of parrying and punishing. with that in mind, all I can think of would be either making parrying such high reflex that most normal people cant do it, make parrying no longer an option, make feinting drain stamina far more quickly, etc. All those changes hurt casual players a lot, and the game will not survive if its not approachable by new and casual players. Of course this is all from my opinion and I really don't know a lot about the intricacies of the game for higher end playing.
Senior Member
They could have just lessened the stagger time from parry that it is not enough for a guaranteed GB anymore, but enough for a light attack. But apparently someone with decision authority likes turtle meta way too much.Originally Posted by VampireSamurai Go to original post
Same goes for 1v1 revenge ********.
Banned
Essentially, the "Turtle Meta" emerges because of the following :
1. Heavy attacks do a lot more damage than a light attack, but they are easy to block / parry
2. Light attacks are harder to block / parry. As a result, against a good player, that's pretty much your only opener
3. Parrying will give you an automatic guard break which then leads to a heavy attack that can't be blocked / parried.
4. Parrying + Guard Break can also lead to an instant kill if you can throw your opponent off a ledge or into spikes.
This leads to 2 strategies to win, each depending on the opponent you're facing :
a) If you are playing against an aggressive player, just block everything he throws at you and try to get a parry. If you are a good player, you might get poked by some light attacks, but when you'll parry + guard break, you'll come back on top with your heavy attacks or your instant kill throw.
b) If you are playing against another turtle ... feint and feint some more. At some point, your opponent will make a mistake and "miss" his parry ... which you will parry and punish with a guard break + unblockable heavy. Repeat. This leads to staring contest where both playing stay out of harms way throwing obvious feints at each other ... or abuse bugs like "flicker" or "guard break cancel".
As more and more players get better and figure out "defense" is the way to go, more and more starring contest happens and this is where the game becomes very dull to play and watch.
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There you have it. The problem lies in the fact playing "defensive" will actually help you out-damage your opponent and is much more rewarding than playing "offensive". Now, as for proposing a solution, I dont have the client to test all the variables in front of me, but the first solution I would like to test if I could would be as follow :
i. Considering a "block" is already rewarding the defender in the fact he negates the damage + drain a small amount of stamina
ii. Considering a "parry" is already rewarding the defender in the fact he negates the damage + drain a lot of stamina + you combo break your opponent's chain attacks
My fix would be to have players exchange "momentum" through combos (I know Ubisoft love combos). Normal blocking wouldn't break a combo, but parry would break it sooner. I would make it so players have a recovery animation after they perform a combo, about 300 ms. During that time, they could switch guard direction in time for an opponent's attack, but they would not be able to recover + attack because their opponent will attack faster. In other words, your opponent should take this opportunity to start his own combo chains. As a result, you'll have both players exchange combo of blows until one falls. Blocking would only negate damage and parrying would allow you to start your combo faster since you broke your opponent's combo chain before its end.
Just a little question I throw out there : When is the last time you saw a good player do a 3 hit combo ?? ... a long time ago. Might as well not have any 3 hit combo since doing them will actually just get you punished by the Turtle in front of you.
Obviously, for this to work, you need to remove any free damage after you block / parry. Else, you would still have turtles everywhere. So I would allow all players to be able to counter guard break regardless of the animation state they are in. In the middle of a dodge ? Staggered by parry ? Recoiled from hitting the wall ? You can still counter guard break if your timing is right.
Guard break is too strong with all the instant kill options all around the map. We need to nerf it by allowing players to counter guard break way more easily. Players can still punish something like a Valkyrie missing a leg sweep or shield tackle by dodging out of it and throwing an unblockable light attack at the defenseless valkyrie ... a light attack that would start a combo (momentum !!). We shouldn't need to guard break every time we want to punish someone, that's just silly.
TLDR : That would be the first thing I test :
#1 : Remove any free damage from overly defensive gameplay
#2 : Encourage "combo chains" gameplay by allowing players to exchange momentum, thus players play the "art of battle" again.
Member
Actually a lot of that makes sense and wouldn't be to punishing to newer players while allowing skill in higher levels of play. Personally I found the way the gear was set up before this next patch also led to a lot of cheese builds which has killed the fun of pvp for me as a casual player. So with the changes coming I have a feeling that even if I do start playing pvp, it'll just be a different kind of annoying unless this is fixed
