it is TIER TIIIIIMEEEE! | Forums

[S0Mi_xD]

OK, hey guys.
I was confronted currently with the opinion, that there are no "tiers" in for horno, and that "tiers" are just an excuse for bad players.
Mhh.. but i am not a bad player and still i can separate the 12 heros into Tiers.
ATTENTION! PLEASE READ THIS

This tier list does not mean:
1. Tier: Best - 2. Tier: Second best - 3. Tier: middel - 4. Tier: worst

It is more like:
1.Tier: Most over- /unbalanced/most advantages (much more than disadvantages)
2.Tier: less advantages then Tier 1 but still over- /unblanced
3.Tier: a good balance between advantage and disadvandage but still has moves which are (far) superior then Tier 4
4.Tier: overall good balanced, could maybe need some adjustments - no real buff or nerf

This Tier list does not mean that chars in the same tiers are equal, it means they are in a good spot in terms of balance.



So here is a "Tierlist"

First Tier: Warlord, Warden

Second Tier: Peacekeeper

Sub Tier (betwenn Second and Third): Lawbringer, Orochi,

Third Tier: Valkyrie, Nobushi, Shugoki, Kensei, Conquerer, Raider, Berserker

Now you are wondering why I listed them this way.
My tier list is based on the overall balance and the tools to outplay defensive play. And i do not talk about tools that every char has access like GB and feint(except conqu).

In short: This List subdivides the heros not in POWER, its more about the balance between advantages and disadvantages.

1. Warlord
... is a swiss army man and has nearly no downsides.
- Zone: Fast, wide range and 25 dmg, so you can easy kill enemies on the last bar.
- Headbutt: A fast relativly safe opener with a safe light (10 dmg).
- And has a great defense overall, with free lights or heavies.
- a running push against exhausted enemies, so he can gamble with the running move or instead just GB if the enemy tries to dodge
- and his damn wide throws

2. Warden
.... has a strong gambling tool (shoulder bash)
- a nearly instant zone (and with flicker bug 99% guarateed hit) that is quite strong (20 dmg)
- and a damn fast top light and top counter.
- aswell as double side light attack (15 + 9 = 24 - so he nearly gets the dmg of a Conqu heavy (25) for a side light

3. PK
... doesn't need an opener, because her lights are damn fast
- and with parry and gb she can spread her damn strong bleed
- also just sidedashattack (the total dmg(15dmg +15bleed) is equal to a heavy(33 dmg))
- her very fast and wide dash making her very agile

4. LB
... overall in a good place but his current shovel makes him abit to strong.
- quite fast opener, his shovel.
- kind of a "50/50" with his shovel (here i want to mention, LB's 50/50 doesn't star after the shovel, it starts already befor, if you fight a LB you are constanly aware that he could shovel you or grab you (this works because his shovel initiates really fast), and in his shovel, he has a "weak 50/50" - in short his OOS mindgame is so damn strong.
- also he has a unblockable attack to bait ppl like the raider or kensei.
- a fast and quite strong top light
- his shovel has hyperarmor, so he can shovel into chains or just attack, don't need to trade dmg and gets his kind of a 50/50
- his shovel has a damn wide magnetic range, many times when i dodge away he it still hits me (like magnetic GB on dodging enemies).
(take away the last point of the LB (hyper and magnet range) and he dropps to a good balanced char)

5. Orochi
... is in a good balance, even if he doesn't has an active opener.
There are only adjustments i would do, like riptide should be feintabel
EDITh and forgot the zone especialy with the flicker bug does place him abit in overbalance. (thanks to CaTaStR0Fa for the reminder)
- (similar to PK) his combo dmg is a bit to high, working with his top second is abit to strong. (currently 17+15 - better way 17+10 or 11)

6. Valkyrie
... is in a good balance, she has a strong combo, good tools to open up defensive play, but still punishable.
Except one move that makes turtleing with her very easy - her shield tackle (jumping back and wait)

7. Nobushi
.... is aswell in a quite good balance (but here i can't say more because I do not have much experience aginst or with her)
the only thing i can say is, that her bleed is much to strong, same like PK (the only "balanced" bleed is valks shoulder pin)

8. Shugoki
... with his oni charge nerf he dropped into a quite balanced place.
There are 2 thing i would change:
- Would nerf the stamina dmg on his headbutt
- And buff his Oni charge - how? Oni charge should at least hit enemies against a wall for a free light (not heavy) because currently it is only good to cheese enemies down a ledge...

9. Kensei
... i do really think that he is in a quite good balance now. Has strong mindgames and a strong dmg. and some good tools.

10. Raider
... I do think Raider is quite balanced, yes i think so. He has a strong dmg. good tools and a very strong OOS mindgame.
The only things i would change are,
- his zone should do 30 dmg instead 25
- that he should get a free Zone out of a GB. and noooo not a free Heavy, why you think?
The same reason why shugokis Oni charge was nerfed, Raider and Shugoki have the same Heavy dmg side 40 and top 45, but already 40 is to much for a guaranteed GB heavy.
- Raider gets a Top heavy after light parry (really strong) and heavys on a wallcombe

The only reason why Raider is considered as a low tier by the most ppl, is because he is hard to master and he doesn't can't kill the last bar of an enemy to execute them after a GB.

11. Berserker
... is quite balanced. But still has a bad synergy in his moveset.
If you want to know more about it click here: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...ed-Adjustments

Special Case:
12. Conquerer
... with his nerf he dropped from top to the special case.
- In general Conquerer is quite good, he has a opener(shildbash that isn't that strong, because it is reactable).
- has superior block (a damn strong defensive tool, he gets a free GB after a heavy block
- has dodgeblock that combos into shildbash

- The problem with the Conqu is, his dmg overall is the lowest in the game (all lights 12, all heavies 25, charged heavies 33 and 45) and his zone with 10 dmg - (but his defense is the strongest)
- He can't faint (except with full gueard stance, but his chains into a shildbash)
- Overall his strongest offensive move is the shildbash and it has no hyperarmor like warden or LB (and i don't want it to have hyper pls no)
- his moves aren't that fast
- and his charge attack - ppl see it coming when you swing the thing, charge is only safe if you block an attack befor, but that is the reason why nobody attacks a Conque when he does charge his attack.

- Currently Conqu need to rely very much on his shildbash, but his shildbash doesn't need a buff it is ok the way it is.
things i would consider as a good buff to balance him:
- Hyperarmor for his charge attacks
- he needs a better stamina management currently he needs to much stamina to do his thing.(only little changes it doesn't need much)
OR give him a REWORK overall (but this is only the emergency plan)

I do think, most of the chars are quite balanced.
More of a problem are, bugs, lags, and the overall OP defensive META that ruins the balance.

That's this current view.
What do you think?

[Netcode_err_404]

Honestly watching a warden above pk gives me heartstrokes.

Watching orochi under LB's gives me AIDS.

The only one I agree is the 1st warlord. Rest is just random placements.

[CandleInTheDark]

3. PK
... doesn't need an opener, because her lights are damn fast
- and with parry and gb she can spread her damn strong bleed
- also just sidedashattack (the total dmg(15dmg +15bleed) is equal to a heavy(33 dmg))

See here is what annoys me, according to some players there is no acceptable way for the peacekeeper to fight. I mean you just named her only three viable ways right there.

Throws lights? OMG light spam (even though this is not possible now and good riddance)
Feinting heavies for either heavies or light OMG spam (despite the fact it is acceptable as good gameplay for every other character)
Parry and bleed? Damn turtle.
Bleed in general (I use deep gouge, deflects, etc) you get cheap a.f., especially if they died bleeding and you didn't give them an opportunity to hit you because why would you.
Dodge attack again omg spam.

So...um, the only acceptable way is for the peacekeeper to throw free heavies? Only that has caused someone to rage quit on me too, against a warlord that blocked my dodges, I hit a single double light and a free heavy after a feint, ragequit. Whatever we do, we get salt.

As for the conqueror, the devs say he is actually top tier in terms of win/loss, they did say they might want to give him more options in the future but he is performing well all in all.

[CaTaStR0Fa]

the only thing that i agree is warlord.Dont you dare put lb first and then valk omg.As a main lb you can counter lb so ****ing easy..only the newcomes dont know how to punish him with his shove.Valk in the other hand has everything except the op dmg.she has too many combos and this sweep is just op and she can mix it up with everything and she dosnt need dmg cause the opponet is always down from the spam sweep.Last thing orochi is more op than you guys think especialy with the flicks so in my opinion valk and orochi are above lb

[S0Mi_xD]

Honestly watching a warden above pk gives me heartstrokes.

Watching orochi under LB's gives me AIDS.

The only one I agree is the 1st warlord. Rest is just random placements.

Ok, thats your opinion.

It's not random, i do explain why they are at this place and you forgot one thing, my tier list is tied to the defensive meta.
Those lines are very important to understand this list:
"Now you are wondering why I listed them this way.
My tier list is based on the overall balance and the tools to outplay defensive play. And i do not talk about tools that every char has access like GB and feint(except conqu)."

In short: This List subdivides the heros not in POWER, its more about viabilty or how "unfair" a char is. PK isn't below the Warden, and LB isn't above the Orochi.
It is more like a list for chars who need really need a change if you understand it better this way.

PK could be considert as a spacial case.
Her power lies in her speed and her punishment (most of the time its bleed) but her tools are similar to the other assassins

The warden has a strong "swiss army tool" its a strong mindegame especialy as an OOS mindgame (vortex).

About LB, just read the last line of his part it will explain all.

[S0Mi_xD]

the only thing that i agree is warlord.Dont you dare put lb first and then valk omg.As a main lb you can counter lb so ****ing easy..only the newcomes dont know how to punish him with his shove.Valk in the other hand has everything except the op dmg.she has too many combos and this sweep is just op and she can mix it up with everything and she dosnt need dmg cause the opponet is always down from the spam sweep.Last thing orochi is more op than you guys think especialy with the flicks so in my opinion valk and orochi are above lb

Oh guys should i highlight the line you need to pay very good attention`?

At first, valks leg sweep is much easier to dodge then the "weak 50/50" of LB.

And orochi is strong because he is in a good balance, except one thing that i forgot ... its the flicker thanks for that

[CaTaStR0Fa]

i agree with you that the sweep is easy to dodge...but the thing is that valk can mix it with everything so you cant possibly know what her next combo..she can gb you,she can hit heavy ,hit fast lights can sweep at anymoment in this combos . LB after the shove can hit light heavy or gb you nothing more.Orochi is in good balance but using the flick and za he is so strong

[Netcode_err_404]

Ok, thats your opinion.

It's not random, i do explain why they are at this place and you forgot one thing, my tier list is tied to the defensive meta.
Those lines are very important to understand this list:
"Now you are wondering why I listed them this way.
My tier list is based on the overall balance and the tools to outplay defensive play. And i do not talk about tools that every char has access like GB and feint(except conqu)."

In short: This List subdivides the heros not in POWER, its more about viabilty or how "unfair" a char is. PK isn't below the Warden, and LB isn't above the Orochi.
It is more like a list for chars who need really need a change if you understand it better this way.

PK could be considert as a spacial case.
Her power lies in her speed and her punishment (most of the time its bleed) but her tools are similar to the other assassins

The warden has a strong "swiss army tool" its a strong mindegame especialy as an OOS mindgame (vortex).

About LB, just read the last line of his part it will explain all.

There no magnetic range, you just dodge too early

And I like to remember you, we rely on p2p.


The only magnetic attack is the demon ebrace, sometimes it just act like a black hole.

[Netcode_err_404]

i agree with you that the sweep is easy to dodge...but the thing is that valk can mix it with everything so you cant possibly know what her next combo..she can gb you,she can hit heavy ,hit fast lights can sweep at anymoment in this combos . LB after the shove can hit light heavy or gb you nothing more.Orochi is in good balance but using the flick and za he is so strong

Orochi is not balanced.

Giving a full list of useless combo, except 2 that are better than any other combo is just unbalancing at its finest.

He has a double top light that is

1) faster than a side light
2) does double the damage

Whats the point in giving him a super powerfull top light, and useless slow side ? His top light does the same damage of a heavy, thats basically means his heavies are useless. Then he has a glitched ultra fast ZA, whic is not punishable unless you guess right with a parry.

He is far from beeing balanced honestly. Same with spamkeeper.


LB is too slow to be considered top tier, sorry. He is mediocre, poor mixups, predictable, the only pro he has its his "fake 50/50" that every assassin will avoid, when they will nerf the block > shove ( because its lame and people abuse the fact you can block all you want.) will be trash tier again Unless they really buff his speed.


His top heavy is 1000ms even my grandma could parry it.

[S0Mi_xD]

See here is what annoys me, according to some players there is no acceptable way for the peacekeeper to fight. I mean you just named her only three viable ways right there.

Throws lights? OMG light spam (even though this is not possible now and good riddance)
Feinting heavies for either heavies or light OMG spam (despite the fact it is acceptable as good gameplay for every other character)
Parry and bleed? Damn turtle.
Bleed in general (I use deep gouge, deflects, etc) you get cheap a.f., especially if they died bleeding and you didn't give them an opportunity to hit you because why would you.
Dodge attack again omg spam.

So...um, the only acceptable way is for the peacekeeper to throw free heavies? Only that has caused someone to rage quit on me too, against a warlord that blocked my dodges, I hit a single double light and a free heavy after a feint, ragequit. Whatever we do, we get salt.

As for the conqueror, the devs say he is actually top tier in terms of win/loss, they did say they might want to give him more options in the future but he is performing well all in all.

Yes, indeed.
I do agree with you. The playerbase is quite unfaire against the PK.
I play PK aswell and i am a person who uses her full kit.

1. I do really mean ONLY Light spam, no deflect or other things.
2.I am not against the GB and bleed stab, i do have overall a problem with the Bleed dmg of PK and Nobushi, it is just a tiny bit to strong.
A full bleed GB of the PK are 42 dmg in total (this is more than shugokis pre-nerf free heavy after the oni charge or stronger then a free heavy for the Raider)
Also she can combo into the wall or do a OOS punish after 2 stabs, thats a damn high dmg.

Nerf bleed a little bit, and change the mentalilty of the ppl to not spam lighs but thats not possible, so dropping her second light dmg. would be a good way (currently first light 17 and second 15 dmg)
Berserkers Combo dmg drops from Light 17 to 9 and side heavy from 33 to 20. And he isn't that fast as a PK.

... People will allways ***** about a char. The salt will never end...

But with nerfing bleed abit and her combo dmg abit, I would be fine with it.
Oh and buffing her deflect.
One of my (in my opinion "good" ideas ) for a deflect buff on her is, if you deflect and hit the light she slips past the enemy and WHilE she slips past the enemy he hits him. Also the enemy AND YOU lose the aim on the PK (because you are both back to back). This would be cooler than just hyperarmor...

Oh and about, Counq, i said he is a special case, because he is currently "good" but needs to rely to much on his shild bash and his charge falls behind.

Overall i don't want big changes, i want small thing to chang to balance the chars.