Nobushi needs work (after Closed, Open, Launch, and other Nerfs) | Forums

[LordKracen]

I should clarify, those lists of improvements are simply ideas that on their own would be useful improvements for Nobushi, obviously doing all of them would probably be going too far, I just see those areas of her lacking and in need of improvement.

Before I continue I should note, all my thoughts on Nobushi here and in my prior post are purely based on 1v1s and 2v2s and do not consider gear in any way simply because I stopped playing 4v4s since the Revenge nerf due to it just becoming a boring gank fest but that's another discussion.

One thing I failed to do, which was because I wrote it at midnight and was quite tired is provide reasoning for each of my proposed buffs which I will rectify now.

1. Hidden stance needs to cost less stamina.

The reason for this is that when doing a combo using hidden stance, be it aggressive (Light/Heavy - HS cancel - Light - Light/Heavy/Kick) or defensive (HS dodge - Light - Light) you'll find yourself unable to act for a moment lest you want to just run out of stamina, effectively resetting the pace of the fight or giving your opponent their chance to now dictate the pace.

2. Hidden stance needs to be quicker (In fact if you look at the advanced how to play video, you'll see the hidden stance displayed is much quicker than it actually is) The alternative to this would be to make it so attacks out of hidden stance are quicker or both.

I personally much prefer the later to the former, I'd rather attacks specifically out of HS to be quicker rather than HS activate quicker, the reason for this is because HS activating quicker will as people mentioned tighten the dodge aspect of HS, a way around this would be to increase its dodge window but I think that'd make it too powerful... Why I would prefer attacks out of HS be quicker is because it should be a surprise punish and currently it isn't against a semi-decent player. The idea is, you feint a light with HS, they try parry said light and then you go for a sudden double light from another direction, however, in practice this doesn't always work because these players are quick enough to cancel their parry attempt and block the new incoming attack.
(Though thinking about it more, a quicker HS start up would also then add to the speed in which you can attack out of it again, so it would be good aggressively but bad defensively.)

3. Kick should either be quicker or have hyper armour (Unlike the Shinobi kick we actually have something to balance ourselves on when doing it unlike Shinobi who does it freely) or both.
3b. Preferably have it so kick can be cancelled into something else.

Again, I would prefer the later to the former, but as I cannot think of something reasonable for it to be cancelled into that wouldn't just create a 50/50 (Which such things shouldn't be in the game at all but again, that's another discussion) I'll leave someone else to think of something.
Kick is something in our tool kit which as I originally stated, should you get hit by a Nobushi kick you have no one to blame but yourself which means for a Nobushi to kick is actually more likely to cause an issue for the Nobushi than anyone else, just wasted stamina, a free hit from your opponent or a GB if they time it right (Or worse you're foolish enough to try Cobra Strike giving them a free light parry)... Frankly I just want some utility to be possible off of the kick that isn't just a flat negative to the Nobushi.

Will ignore 4 because that is being addressed, forgot about that at the time of writing the original post.

5. Dodge speed and distance needs to be increased.

Nobushi dodges at the same distance and speed (Or at least near enough before people correct this if its wrong by a few MS) as a Lawbringer, Nobushi wears no armour, I'm amazed Lawbringer is capable of climbing a ladder successfully with all that weight. Simply put, she barely moves, and slowly at that to the point in fact she has a rather large unstoppable GB window should you grab her after her dodge animation. Out of the two however, I'd prefer speed over distance as that also deals with the recovery time issue where she is vulnerable to a unstoppable GB.

6. Cobra Strike (Dodge and light) specifically from the sides need to dodge further in order to make it an actual dodging punish.

This ties together with my thoughts on the kick (and to a lesser extent Sidewinder, though because Sidewinder can be chained and kick combo'd it has more practical use), first thing to clarify, when I talk about Cobra Strike I am exclusively talking about its side attack variations, the forward version is fine. To preface this though, I cannot the last time I used a side Cobra Strike and landed it successfully, its entire use from me stems from "Oh I haven't used this yet, maybe it'll throw them off", unlike other dodging attacks like a Berserkers, PKs, Orochi's which are directly used to punish dodgable moves you try dodge a heavy attack and use this, you're getting hit by that heavy attack... Meaning, it is purely an aggressive attack and not a defensive one, and as it is almost always blocked, it is effectively a useless move, thus it needs something to make it a viable dodge punish.

7. Swift Recoil should have some form of follow up or simply cost less or even no stamina.

I used to never use this, like most Nobushi's because why bother... I use it far more frequently now, as it is a handy reset on the fights pacing, it gives you distance, to recover stamina and regain your bearings, so I'd rather it simply not cost us stamina to do this... We're meant to be long range, don't punish us for trying to keep at range...
Food for thought, perhaps even make it it so, we swift recoil, plant our Nanigata in the ground and lunge forward for a quick kick.

To reiterate what I said in the original post... A Nobushi (Nanigata warrior) is meant to be a swift combatant who's attacks and movements flow with precision, mastery and speed... Instead what we have is a slow and sluggish woman with a big stick.
All you need to do is look at footage of professionals using the Nanigata and you'll see a vast difference in usage to what it should be compared to what we have.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tu1el_-bJb8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8J_IkuUbak
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmeNOX_oEZ4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCImTMMLrQo

Edit: Oh and the most important thing Nobushi needs is to have Momiji's hat from the campaign.

[Herbstlicht]

Like the Momijis hat suggestion

Anyway, this thread continues to be rather alive and filled with good comments.
Hidden stance buff in terms of speed, possibly faster attacks out of it, maybe more i-frames and less stamina consumption (along with the regeneration penalty removed!) would already be very much appreciated.
Cobra Strike as a real side dodge attack combined with a "good" dodge .. oh yes *-*
When it comes to swift recoil .. I think it isn't too bad, it would be really good if it could come from any of the three directions and - as was said - did really allow follow ups. Though follow-ups would be the single best thing for swift recoil .. well, we will see. Maybe the devs do listen?

[Anarnam]

Pretty much all nobushi needs is faster hidden stance, making it possible to use it before enemy's gb (which is right now absolutely impossible unless you are lucky as hell and start using it before enemy even thinkgs about doing GB). More invicibility will only make this more reliable and unique skill in the game, while the kick will remain the most skill-and-situational required ability (unlike shinobis kick for example which is no-brainer skill).

[Y_Shrewditch]

I've taken some time to think about it and read up on what Reddit is saying, which is basically the same as what we're discussing here.

I'd rather attacks specifically out of HS to be quicker rather than HS activate quicker, the reason for this is because HS activating quicker will as people mentioned tighten the dodge aspect of HS, a way around this would be to increase its dodge window but I think that'd make it too powerful.

I think the reason for attacks not coming out faster is because they're the second part of the chain, at normal speed. The issue I have is that the top light is still slower than the sides, which make my options limited and the side the safest, and most predictable, bet.

If attacks from HS were indeed faster (which I would like to see), it may make it with the guaranteed third hit a bit overpowered. So perhaps if the toplights in general were also 500ms instead of 600ms this would already help out a lot. (I wouldn't mind them having the same damage as a side then as well)

Right now, the timing of HS feels inconsistent. I sometimes anticipate the slow startup and initiate right when a heavy starts, and I get hit while in HS, at other times I initiate when I would normally parry, and still get hit on the startup move (if that even goes through at all). A few extra iframes would help out a lot, especially when reallife lag is an issue.

I'm still not sure what exactly is lagging into Hidden Stance, could be guardchange, a step, reallife lag, mistiming, but SOMETHING is keeping it from activating when I try to activate it. So a faster initiation doesn't necessarily mean that the move needs a faster startup, just that it doesn't wait for anything to start it.

But I absolutely don't want the ability to counter-gb out of HS to be limited.

Kick is something in our tool kit which as I originally stated, should you get hit by a Nobushi kick you have no one to blame but yourself which means for a Nobushi to kick is actually more likely to cause an issue for the Nobushi than anyone else, just wasted stamina, a free hit from your opponent or a GB if they time it right.

I don't mind getting hit out of the kick by lights, but most characters can do it on a heavy too. So a little extra speed might be useful.

The guaranteed hit after a kick connects is great, but I feel the punish on a whiff is too big for something that comes out so slow and is very easy to dodge. I have never got the recovery into HS to actually do anything meaningful, I either still get hit or don't have enough stamina to do anything else.

So if it would get a little extra speed to outperform a slow heavy, a little less stamina cost, and tie in with an improved HS that would make it a lot more useful. Perhaps have the recovery cancelable with a dodge into sidewinder as well, not just a Cobra Strike.

Out of the two however, I'd prefer speed over distance as that also deals with the recovery time issue where she is vulnerable to a unstoppable GB.

Seeing how distance is so important to a Nobushi, I actually prefer distance over speed. But I do get your point on free GB.

Kensei has a dodge-attack like an assassin, Sidewinder could be a milder version of that, or a stronger counter against dodge-attacks. With real tight timing I can get it to work against a PK's dodge-attack, but not much else. I'd like Sidewinder to at least dodge unblockables, like Warlords headbutt, LB's shove, Centurion's and Shinobi's kick.

To be honest, I haven't thought about Cobra Strike so much. I rarely use it, it's too slow to be used offensively, but too fast to catch a dodge(-attack). At best I use it as a mix-up in between Sidewinders, or after I see the opponent dodging when I dodge (and hope I get the timing right). If it could actually dodge some attacks, or be a stronger counter to it, it would be a lot more useful.

We're meant to be long range, don't punish us for trying to keep at range...
Food for thought, perhaps even make it it so, we swift recoil, plant our Nanigata in the ground and lunge forward for a quick kick..

Well, I'm not so sure about getting that distance and then immediately go for a flying superman kick to get back at it again, but perhaps it could be something like the Valkyrie's stance where she charges the shieldbash?

Edit: Oh and the most important thing Nobushi needs is to have Momiji's hat from the campaign.

I feel like such a noob now, but I have no idea what you mean

Anyways, these were some extra thoughts to keep the discussion going.
Good work mates!

EDIT: After trying some new combo's on bots, I found one reason why HS doesn't come out how I expect it. Sometimes during an exchanges I've already started a chain and attempt to either feint or dodge with HS, but when in a chain, I can't feint with HS, only with the normal feint.
Maybe you all already knew about this, because the moveset list actually says "basic attack startups", but for me it's a revelation, and I still feel like a noob

So to add to the wishlist; have HS act like a feint as well as a recovery cancel during the whole chain of Poke the Nest, Hiss and Bite, and Death Rattle Form

[Draghmar]

I feel like such a noob now, but I have no idea what you mean

That's the NPC from the campaign that has really interesting hat:
http://forhonor.wikia.com/wiki/Momiji

[Y_Shrewditch]

Thanks Draghmar! Yeah, that's an interesting lampshade, erhm hat

[Madao_ru]

I love the Nobushi.
Ill probably keep maining her until they bring a "full support" type character, but there are some things which are a major bother while playing her currently:

• The slow guard change.
  Sometimes you have those endless treaks of losses simply because of the slow guard change.
  You see an attack coming, you change your stance to intercept the attack... to slow, axe in your face.
  Than the enemy changes direction again, which you see happen and change your stance accordingly... again to slow, another axe in your face.
  Once it starts it often keeps happening until either death, or you're 1 hit away from death.

• Dodge range sucks.
  As others mentioned it before, a dodge done by a Nobushi can hardly be called dodging.
  More often than not you stay well within range of the enemies attack, if you dodge them at all.
  The dodge attacks are even worse. You don't seem to dodge at all. Countering an overhead with a dodge-attack means taking the hit and not hitting yourself.

They could use some work.
A very big start would be to give her the dodge range of an assassin type hero.
I can live with the slow guard change if i can at least get out of the way of attack.

Just my thughts)
It`s really the first thing that should be done to her.

[Draghmar]

The guard change was addressed some time ago. There was live update that brought guard time change for each class to the same level.

[Vikingdu91]

Bonjour de toute évidence personne ne vois le problème , bah je vais vous le dire le poison , le fait que les classe telle que nobushi , spadassin ou encore shinobi empoisonnent déjà bien assez leur donner la possibilité de r'ajouter poison sur poison ca flingue les games 4 v 4 je parle même pas sous vengeance c'est a mourrir de rire 1 coup 4 mort attaque de zone bien-sûr la nobushi et déjà très polyvalent , position secrète , distance , possibilité de pousser et de nombreux enchaînements magnifique mais le fait est que desfois 3 coups sont suffisant pour qu'elle se d'esintéresse et passe sur votre collègue (2v2) je ne cris pas au nerf loin de la je demande juste de retirer le poison sur les classe telle nobushi shinobi et spadassin et laisser le poison en «Capacité» de 4v4 voilà pour ma part.

[KokuRou142]

@Vikingdu91 Nobushi having bleed is probably one of her best features, considering her damage output really isn't all that good. Her attacks, and I've seen this happen as well as experience this, are all slow enough to be blocked, parried, and punished on dodges. Forget about her bleed/poison. Nobushi is a midrange fighter who was originally meant to be "fight on reaction". Adapt to other heroes, excellent for hit and run tactics. I never see Nobushi being used other than in videos by FightForHonor and, maybe one or two other people who are actually good with her. Nobushi's glory has fallen, so far that people who do use Nobushi often give up within the first few days.