(rant) the heavy class... | Forums

[Antonioj26]

You can't bring Shugoki's speed up while keeping his damage it would just be too much. And as for the DE, it's harder to land than you think, It's predictable from a mile away since he sqauts before it. And if your careless enough to be caught by a DE in his last dying breath you deserve to die lol, so easy to dodge and light. And it only recovers half life and full stamina. Yeah I hated the Nerf on charge too but it's not that bad, a small stun can go a ways in a team battle.

Warlord lacks distance man, yeah I hate being dragged to a ledge but like every other heavy had thier pros and cons. As for the trades you just got to respect the warlord and wait for a punish or your turn to mix it up since he drains stamina quickly.

As for the Conq, why would you slow his bash? His shield skills kinda make up where his flail skills lack. As a Conq myself I dont use full block at all, it drains stamina that heavy classes need, it's way better to use normal block since it'll stop most combos while having stamina regen at the same time. His turtle game is legit since he's a "Strong Defense" Hero, and anyone using him in a tourney would get some mad props if they pulled it off because its not easy.

So yeah I disagree respectfully.

Heavy classes are not for everyone a smart player would know not to trade with any heavy. They lack speed but make it up in other areas. And I also don't like it when people compare the mighty Warlord to other heavys, they each have thier their own unique style and shouldn't all be the same.

It only takes one gb and one wall to get a guaranteed DE, or a knockdown. As for warlord he has pretty much no cons. He's got everything in his kit. Too lazy to list off but one character shouldn't have that much. I have a pretty good amount of playtime between them all. Conq is trash.

[Antonioj26]

Frankly, I'm wondering why a Warlord is given freebie UI on heavies, when a 7 feet tall giant weighing 500 lbs is stopped from swinging his double-handed metal bat that's twice the length of Warlord's sword -- just because someone nicked him with a knife or tagged his chest.

The Warlord shouldn't have been given the UI on heavies, the Shugoki should have received that.

Meh I think arguining realism in this game doesn't make sense. Orochi gets UI off a deflect and in real life a tiny Asian man sliding his sword across yours wouldn't make him be able to withstand a blow to the face. I think the UI on warlord alone isn't a terrible idea but with every thing else he has its kinda out of hand. The guy is perfect, all the strengths of the of the rest of the cast with none of the weaknesses.

[Antonioj26]

It's not so much about realism, but than it is about pragmatism and balance.

Giving UI to HurB for the Orochi deflect has a clear purpose and reasoning behind it in relation to the discrepancies in the intended effect of the deflect skill, and the reality of what was happening. Deflect doesn't stop attacks, so the skill was mostly impractical to use. The UI addressed that.

But like you mentioned, the Warlord isn't particularly slower than the Shug, nor does it lack all sorts of goodies like damage resistance. It handles like a 16-wheeler, but once you get the hang of it, it becomes like Optimus Prime, whereas the Shug's slower, on average has lower damage resistance (since the UI shield goes away so easily), doesn't have as efficient skills, moves a lot slower. Making a big, lumbering class with these sort of traits give off a very clear design focus as a "slow, big, lumbering powerhouse" class that's designed to absorb a lot of hits, and in turn, trade a lot of blows.

But when they made the Warlord, they made him a grizzly bear on crack, but when they made the Shug, they made him a hippo on sedatives.

I guess you initially bringing up shugs size made me think you were going the realism route. Personally I get more use out of shug having a UI on everything but having a timer than I have with warlords UI on heavies. I just turtle up when someone's broke the my UI until it comes back and make the trades. It's pretty crazy to me how warlord has been relatively untouched and it's even crazier to me when people try and argue that he isn't in a class of his own.

[Knight_Raime]

Heavy is just a very loose guideline for character design: they have high sustainability and a bit of it is sacrificed for some heroes to provide variety.

Shugoki doesn't get a free hit from finishing demon's embrace. GB to break his passive uninterruptible, even if he counters it, it gets rid of the armor. In addition, I believe he will take additional damage without the uninterruptible. As for demons embrace, it is a strong move, but it's a situational move. Shugoki himself is immobilized the same duration as the person he's back breaking, not to mention that he takes damage if he whiffs it. As for brawls and 4v4s, it's strong against players who are less experienced, or players who're just getting swarmed, but if you are getting swarmed, you're doomed to begin with. Even in 1v2 without shugoki or characters with strong CC, any one player can spam GB while the other is coordinating attacks that you cannot counter. Demon's embrace is guaranteed from wallsplats and fallen heroes if timed correctly. So, avoid walls. You aren't obligated to fight where the opponent wants to fight, unless you're down a point, though I understand that in some maps this not possible. However, most 1v1 maps have areas where you can avoid being ledged and wallsplat. People rarely, at least high level players, solely rely on demons embrace to win. After I'd say ~400 hours, I've only got one shot by shugoki twice, and the two times were from me just starting the game and not understanding characters' movesets. As for the embrace in 4v4s, all shugokis take every opportunity to use it when they outnumber you, but so are other characters with good CC like LB, Conq, Warden, Valk, etc.

I'm fine with the concept of a heavy. I just don't feel like they got the design even close to alright for 2 of the 3 heavies.
As for your comments on goki...
I could have sworn he did. I guess the people I was fighting back when I used goki were not aware they could block it. Regardless I still feel it's way too strong in a 1v1 situation.
I'm completely aware even a failed GB removes it and that he takes more damage with it off. I can't always throw out a GB to break it though. Nor should I. I really don't care about the penalties when a wall stun completely ignores those.
Most 1v1 maps I enjoy playing on have some wall or surface easily accessible. Not many duel maps are open enough to avoid wall throws entirely.

Though after talking with some friends I want to change up stuff with goki.
His super armor only goes on lights or only on charged heavies. and always on demons embrace.
DE can do more damage/get more health in critical. but it can't one shot you from full health ever.

[Knight_Raime]

Thanks for the write-up Knight_Raime!
We do realize conq is in a bit of an awkward spot at the moment and are in the process of reviewing him. And some of the things you mentioned with defense and turtling may change when we start to introduce our balancing solutions to address the current defensive meta.
We'll see how things pan out after the shake-up and take a closer look again then - but I'll still mention the points you've brought up to the team!

thanks for taking the time to read my salty ish rant. My ideas could be a bit more refined. Main point I wanted to get across though was that I feel the heavy class is the weakest from a balance perspective.

[Knight_Raime]

Putting yourself near a wall against Shugoki is a bad idea obviously so why do that, as for the parries insta-kill GB and feints are still an option and if that dosent help then your just out of luck bub. The Warlord is beast I know, I dont use him but power to him. I dont hate him nor believe he needs a Nerf. And your suggestion about the neutral bash is not a good idea. I use it alot along it stops unblockables, revenge mode and I still trade damage in the process so making it slower is like kicking the Conq in the balls. And why are you comparing heavys to other classes? If heavys had the same tools as them everyone will cry Nerf! They benefit from high damage and def. Just because you claim you have 60 hours on the Conq dosent mean you know what's best for him or know the Conq like other players, like the thread says your ranting so rant your opinions.

I don't put myself near walls. I get pushed to them on duel maps pretty easily because most duel maps are small enough that it doesn't take long to reach one or a ledge. Goki commands more space than you give him credit for. If it was a 4v4 mode yeah it's totally my fault. But in duels the smaller maps kind of make it difficult. I don't hate the warlord or any character. That still doesn't mean it's okay on a fundamentel level or a balance level to give 1 of your characters all the tools and not require at least a semi high learning curve for the character. I agree my changes on the conq are the weakest of my suggestions. I mainly just want him to be a bit more punishable but able to do a bit more besides literally turtle.

The comparisons were not to show that the heavies need the same tools. It was to point out how much better designed they were. the heavies are too simple as their concepts and don't fit balance imo. The rumored heavy that will have a big 2h sword and switches between attack and defense stances sounds as a concept far more solid than these 3 do. as the attack stance can't parry or block. just dodge as a defense.

In order for me to feel like the heavies are in a good spot conq needs more options, warlord needs less and more risk, and goki just needs more risk. Goki of the 3 is the best designed to me. and really isn't far from being in a good spot balance wise.

[Yarzahn]

Conqueror and Shugoki have very defined playstyle, while feels unique and very fun.

If anything the Warlord suffers from being good at pretty much everything and being the god of trades and reactive/ defensive gameplay (basically representing everything that is wrong with the meta).
I can't read what his design choice was. What were supposed to be his trade-offs? Lack of combos? Lack of range? Neither really hurt him, as he can poke and trade his way to victory, being the tankiest hero in game and having uninterruptable heavies, as well as having superb control and punishing capabilities with the headbutts and ripostes.

I agree Shugoki's embrace should NOT instakill people under any circumstances. But I disagree with limiting the heal and damage. It is an extremely dangerous and punishable move. It SHOULD be very strong when it connects. Also, a wall stagger does not guarantee embrace against all classes, Most classes can escape before it lands (depends on the distance you are from the wall). PK can escape trivially. Other than that, Shugoki's hyper-armor trade mechanic is fine. It's easy enough to remove (even a grab removes it, even if he breaks it) and he then takes extra damage and becomes very vulnerable with his slow easy-to-read attacks.

I agree Conqueror has some problems, but nothing gamebreaking. Out of the 3 heavies, I enjoy his kit the most (even if he is generally a worse pick than the other 2 against good players). The flail is a very fun weapon.