Senior Member
..Is literally the worst designed class in the entire game and it's upsetting. Shugoki is literally just damage. has no depth to his kit. Warlord has an answer to literally everything and has no weakness. And conq is literally just defense. So I can't be the only one who watched the tourney yesterday and was depressed about it. Even after waking up i'm still not over it. So i'm going go try and focus my anger and disappointment into a thread here where we discuss these 3 poorly designed classes and what to do about them. I'm alright with people disagreeing with me. But if your answer is anywhere close to "if that's fixed he'll have nothing" i'll just ignore you and tell you in this post. If one of the classes needs something cheesy, scummy, or silly in order to actually work in a higher tier setting the class is fundamentally broken and needs changing. Kay? kay.
Shugoki: Originally I was really into this guy. But after playing him a bit and watching a LOT of good goki's I just can't understand the thought process behind his design. His trading is brain dead easy with no decision making. Has the ability to basically reset a fight despite poor play. Probably the strongest team fighter in the game in a bad way. So what's wrong? Demon's embrace is one of them. Health back on the attack and damage both of which scale depending on his health. Has the potential to one shot and fully heal. It also disables you long enough for his team to bang on you. And goki can get a free hit after dropping you. His hyper armor comes back too quickly. and allows him to trade without risking much. Trading is an okay concept when the person trading has to make a smart choice in doing so. With goki there is no decision. it's if you can you do. and the enemy basically doesn't ever want to try and attack. those things+ his general damage forces goki into turtling and being hard to actually open.
So what do we do to fix goki? First add back his stun with oni charge. But force it so it only knocks people down if you ran x distance. That way he can still break into team fights but it won't be abused for 1v1's. Second bring up his switch speed with everyone else. Third make demon's imbrace have a static number for both damage and health received. Drop the scaling entirely. last make his armor only present when he's attacking.
This will let him still be a strong fighter in 4v4 due to how people throw out attacks all the time. He'd be able to break them up with demon charge. and Demon embrace will still cc people long enough. It will drastically reduce how braindead his 1v1 play is. Smart shugoki's will be able to make optimal trades thus taking reduced damage for scary hits while bringing the damage himself. DE won't be a win button anymore. But it'll still be good damage due to the free hit after. and since you're getting health back it means you can still outlast your opponent. One shots are never fun. and if that's what made goki relevant then goki needs changing.
Warlord: I was kind of excited when I saw a sword and shield guy in the game. But I put off playing him for awhile due to how scummy he was in the community view. But eventually I went and tried him out and I just don't enjoy him. I really don't understand why anyone though giving one character a solution to every situation was a good idea. Let alone have no downsides/weaknesses. Every warrior in this game has a tried and true way to be countered. Except the warlord. You literally just have to hope they make a mistake and you have the reaction time to punish it. Unlike goki warlord is flawed to the core. There is no simple fix. The best fix would be to remove him and redesign him completely. But since that's not an option what do we do?
Well for one thing I feel like some of his power will come down once the defensive meta is nerfed. But what else can we do? Make it so you have to sprint x distance to activate his charge. they also need to really scale back his throw distance. Also we need to make a change that forces the warlord to attempt parrying. His heavies have hyper armor and he's got crushing counter lights. Let's get rid of the superior light mechanic on him. Instead if he times a light parry right he taps the enemy for a blind. How about his hyper armor heavies? reduce the damage on the heavy. However if he makes a successful trade with one his next attack will come out quicker. Lastly Make his zone unsafe on block.
The charge change is obvious due to the shug change we got already. throw distance is also obvious because of how in most maps there is some way to ledge someone and warlord is the only hero who can drag someone that far that easy. zone being unsafe on block is something all zones should have as to have a proper downside to over use of them. but still keep them as a good and relevant tool. the blind effect i'm talking about would be him parrying a light. Would make his lights less powerful for sure but still usable due to their speed. and forcing him to try and parry will open him up for punishing easier. I understand that his kit is built around countering any situation. but the heavy HA trade was just too easy and too good. So reducing it's damage means you'll not try to trade with everything. but the ability to speed up your next hit if you do land a successful trade means the risk might be worth it. Adding a little smart play to his kit imo.
Conqurer: Of all the heavies this is the one i've played the most. He's always been in a weird spot. But this tourney just exposed his issue the best. He's got one method of play. Turtling. Granted someone who's designed around defense would be good at defense. But he still should have a way to be agressive. and benefit less from enviroment kills. As going for the ledge or spikes is far more effective than most of his kit. So how do we change him?
Well lets start with nerfs. first all whiffed bashes (except the one from full block) need to be punishable VIA GB. I realize this was something the devs stated they did. But most warriors can still not do this. So that window needs to be bigger. Slow down the bashes from neutral a tad. Make it so his bashes (except from full block) cannot ledge someone (spikes still work though.) Now with the buffs. If the conq blocks an attack in neutral let him bash. the bash would still be dodgable and punishable. If he dodges into the attack let the next bash he throws out come out faster. if it whiffs it's punishable still point is we're trying to get more bashes in since that's what his kit has for aggression. If the conq blocks a light or zone with all block the bash from all block comes out faster. Lastly make the window for canceling attacks with full block be a little wider.
Again as I mentioned in the beginning conq is flawed because he's only got defense. and in some cases his defense is too good. So these changes make sure he's punishable. But not abusing ledges. And able to go on the offensive.
To recap the overall goal was to make heavies not be so poorly designed. Shug's goal was to keep his power in team fights but make his fights in 1v1's a bit more balanced requiring smarter play. Warlords goal was to reduce turtling. Conq's was to encourage/allow aggression.
Member
I like some of the ideas for shugoki. But the conqueror's I don't. Not every character should be aggressive attackers. (No class is due to defense meta, but others are more aggressive still) his whole kit is based around max defense. He needs to be able to kill someone yes, but at the same time he shouldn't be over aggressive.
Senior Member
I agree that not every kit should be super aggressive. I just want conq to have more variety. As he currently only has one way of playing. I don't think any character should be like that. If the devs find some way to buff him so he's got other ways of playing that's perfectly fine with me.Originally Posted by Titanodragon Go to original post
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You can't bring Shugoki's speed up while keeping his damage it would just be too much. And as for the DE, it's harder to land than you think, It's predictable from a mile away since he sqauts before it. And if your careless enough to be caught by a DE in his last dying breath you deserve to die lol, so easy to dodge and light. And it only recovers half life and full stamina. Yeah I hated the Nerf on charge too but it's not that bad, a small stun can go a ways in a team battle.
Warlord lacks distance man, yeah I hate being dragged to a ledge but like every other heavy had thier pros and cons. As for the trades you just got to respect the warlord and wait for a punish or your turn to mix it up since he drains stamina quickly.
As for the Conq, why would you slow his bash? His shield skills kinda make up where his flail skills lack. As a Conq myself I dont use full block at all, it drains stamina that heavy classes need, it's way better to use normal block since it'll stop most combos while having stamina regen at the same time. His turtle game is legit since he's a "Strong Defense" Hero, and anyone using him in a tourney would get some mad props if they pulled it off because its not easy.
So yeah I disagree respectfully.
Heavy classes are not for everyone a smart player would know not to trade with any heavy. They lack speed but make it up in other areas. And I also don't like it when people compare the mighty Warlord to other heavys, they each have thier their own unique style and shouldn't all be the same.
Senior Member
Originally Posted by Joseph_2017 Go to original post
by his speed I believe you are referring to the guard switch speed? It's already being brought up. Devs mentioned a few of the characters getting their stance speed increased. You can't avoid DE if you get wall splat. it's confirmed that way. Your logic is also flawed/ I can massively out play the shugoki the entire fight and he can parry me once and insta kill me. that's not me being careless. that's literally too much reward for majority of bad play. One shots just shouldn't be a thing. I wouldn't mind if he got more health back or did more damage when he was in critical. I just think he shouldn't be able to one shot period.
Warlord has no cons. Literally. Majority of the tourney's are won by this guy. You clearly don't understand how fundamentally broken a character is if they have a solution to any problem you throw at him. This in itself wouldn't be so bad if defensive play wasn't as strong as is and some of his options actually required skill/risk.
Just his neutral bash. This would give some time for players to punish him. Which is sorely needed. in my buffs I literally gave him a new way to bash and ways to make all bashes faster. it's his neutral one that is basically impossible to punish. so slowing it a tad seems fair. And the fact that you don't utilize full block at all means you really are not using the kit to his fullest. the bash from that is much stronger. full block allows you to feint. Normal block doesn't confirm you enough on it's own. I've got well over 60 hours on the guy.
Nothing you said changes the fact that they are poorly designed heros. conq is only defense. barely any attack options. stupidly hard to punish. Warlord can handle any situation and doesn't have a consistent way to be beaten. and shugs damage potential and brain dead play is just bad. Versus the other 3 classes:
Warden: highly versatile. Good mix up potential. can open up turtles. but isn't amazing in one particular area. and is punishable if you read them right.
Raider: good mix ups. versatile zone. But struggles with confirmable damage. and can easily be toppled if you are decent ish.
Kensei: weakest of the 3 vanguards. But has really good mix up potential. Superior property on dashing attack allows for some agressive play. But is unsafe on block. and since the up light is the only good move that can land consistently you can predict a kensei and punish properly.
PK: fastest hero in the game. very good at applying pressure. Can move in and out easily. But squishiest hero in the game. and if you're good at teching her GB the PK has to try a lot harder to get in.
zerker: fantastic combos. great with smart trades. top notch mix ups. But has no way to open a turtle. and lacks an unblockable. her deflect is probably the most useful though.
Orochi: very good at whiff punishing. Good damage. semi decent mix up. But pretty predictable.
Lawbringer: very good at landing combos. Great at chipping stamina for harassing. but not very good at opening people. pretty easily predicted. relies a lot on parrying.
valk: amazing mix ups. Good at disabling. decent damage. But super unsafe. highly punishable. shoulder pin is borked.
nobushi: good balance of damage and speed. Good mix up potential due to hidden stance and being able to cancel some recovery frames. However easily parried/deflected. Bit stamina hungry. really struggles to open people up.
All the other heros are at least some what balanced or have a very clear and exploitable downside. Where as heavies are basically just "lets hyper focus one idea" and then not make it fun or balanced in anyway.
Member
Heavy is just a very loose guideline for character design: they have high sustainability and a bit of it is sacrificed for some heroes to provide variety.
Shugoki doesn't get a free hit from finishing demon's embrace. GB to break his passive uninterruptible, even if he counters it, it gets rid of the armor. In addition, I believe he will take additional damage without the uninterruptible. As for demons embrace, it is a strong move, but it's a situational move. Shugoki himself is immobilized the same duration as the person he's back breaking, not to mention that he takes damage if he whiffs it. As for brawls and 4v4s, it's strong against players who are less experienced, or players who're just getting swarmed, but if you are getting swarmed, you're doomed to begin with. Even in 1v2 without shugoki or characters with strong CC, any one player can spam GB while the other is coordinating attacks that you cannot counter. Demon's embrace is guaranteed from wallsplats and fallen heroes if timed correctly. So, avoid walls. You aren't obligated to fight where the opponent wants to fight, unless you're down a point, though I understand that in some maps this not possible. However, most 1v1 maps have areas where you can avoid being ledged and wallsplat. People rarely, at least high level players, solely rely on demons embrace to win. After I'd say ~400 hours, I've only got one shot by shugoki twice, and the two times were from me just starting the game and not understanding characters' movesets. As for the embrace in 4v4s, all shugokis take every opportunity to use it when they outnumber you, but so are other characters with good CC like LB, Conq, Warden, Valk, etc.
Community Manager
Thanks for the write-up Knight_Raime!
We do realize conq is in a bit of an awkward spot at the moment and are in the process of reviewing him. And some of the things you mentioned with defense and turtling may change when we start to introduce our balancing solutions to address the current defensive meta.
We'll see how things pan out after the shake-up and take a closer look again then - but I'll still mention the points you've brought up to the team!
Member
Putting yourself near a wall against Shugoki is a bad idea obviously so why do that, as for the parries insta-kill GB and feints are still an option and if that dosent help then your just out of luck bub. The Warlord is beast I know, I dont use him but power to him. I dont hate him nor believe he needs a Nerf. And your suggestion about the neutral bash is not a good idea. I use it alot along it stops unblockables, revenge mode and I still trade damage in the process so making it slower is like kicking the Conq in the balls. And why are you comparing heavys to other classes? If heavys had the same tools as them everyone will cry Nerf! They benefit from high damage and def. Just because you claim you have 60 hours on the Conq dosent mean you know what's best for him or know the Conq like other players, like the thread says your ranting so rant your opinions.
Senior Member
The problem with all these classes is that, by design, they thrive when played with a defensive mindset. That sounds good in theory, but given how turtle focused this game is it ends up making them OP. Personally I'm fine with leaving them as is for the moment and seeing what changes the devs make to the turtle meta in the near future.
