SO centurion , it's a brawler? XD | Forums

[TheRevanchist27]

Indeed, lots of wrestling and bare hands techniques come from pugilat (antique boxing), pankration and antique wrestling.
But the cestus wasn't used by centurions. It was used by gladiators, in pure pugilistic encounters, or in mixed encounters, where the only type of gladiator which used it was the ... Cestus (often slaves and low rank gladiatords, even if it could be effectivelmy destructive in trained hands). and only that, in pair, with no gladius.

Said centurion, regarding his fighting style, the way he moves, his body and corporal expression, looks far more like a gladiator entrertaining the crowd for the sake of bloodthirst, than what you can imagine from a military and a strategic chief that leads campaigns that could make or dislocate empires.

I think it's this point particulary that annoy some players (and the fact that some of us expected him to also wear a scutum).

I always get a laugh out of weebs who claim that Katanas were superior to European weapons, when it was the Western world that had phased out single edged slightly curved blades ages ago in favor of double-edged, larger, and heavier blades. See Falchion, Saber, and Scimitars.

The longsword, (Espada longa), broadsword, greatsword, etc. all of which featured two cutting edges and significantly heavier blades. Yet the most important thing to remember is that the blade is not the only usable weapon on a sword in European martial arts. The crossguard and pommel could often be sharpened or weighted to easily be handled like a club. It wasn't uncommon in European martial arts to grip a sword by the blade and wield it almost like a polearm. We see this as evidence in The Warden.

However back to the topic of the Centurion. I dunno if "Gladiator" would have been more appropriate. This guy acts like a seasoned veteran. I think Rudiarius might be a more believable title. Someone who's been a gladiator, discharged by being gifted a rudius (a wooden rod or sword, symbolic in nature), and who still chose to continue being a Gladiator.

[Karma_Ghost]

I always get a laugh out of weebs who claim that Katanas were superior to European weapons, when it was the Western world that had phased out single edged slightly curved blades ages ago in favor of double-edged, larger, and heavier blades. See Falchion, Saber, and Scimitars.

Are you sure? The saber was used well into WWI. Blade geometry has more to do with armor and unit tactics than the inherent quality of weapons.

[Father_Giliam]

Are you sure? The saber was used well into WWI. Blade geometry has more to do with armor and unit tactics than the inherent quality of weapons.

Very true.

Before guns, armor at that point had made the actual blade fairly useless. As such, straight blades that could either puncture the armor or be thrust into the gaps in armor were favored. The guards and pommels could be used as a blunt object aswell. In WWI, body armor was just catching up to guns, but was expensive and rather new, so basic clothing was the norm, which a sabre was more than capable of cutting through.

The weapon evolves around the armor it is trying to overcome, this is true even now.

[Captain-Courage]

I The longsword, (Espada longa), broadsword, greatsword, etc. all of which featured two cutting edges and significantly heavier blades. Yet the most important thing to remember is that the blade is not the only usable weapon on a sword in European martial arts. The crossguard and pommel could often be sharpened or weighted to easily be handled like a club. It wasn't uncommon in European martial arts to grip a sword by the blade and wield it almost like a polearm. We see this as evidence in The Warden..

For the bolded part, not that much actually (but I totally agree for the techiques)
A good longsword is not that much heavier than a katana in fact (since it was mentioned), or the saber i personnally used the most, a guom viet, and doesn't feel heavy neither if it's well balanced. And most antique asian blades (bronze age mostly) were double edged actually. Its interesting to ask onself why, at some point in history, did they find single edged blade better or more fit for their systems (even if double edged swords were and are still used, like the chinese jian or viet kiem).
The heavy thick blade of the european longsword (like what you can see ingame) is kind of a myth, longswords were very agile weapons actually.
An example

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Regarding realism and fencing. Warden is in a weird position in my opinion (like most characters to be honest, some more than less). Some of his moves are totally realist a come directly from historical forms (Mordhau, half-sword, some strikes and stances...) some are out of place, like most heavy strikes actually, where he either spin around, or drag the blow far to much to be actually effective. But I understand it's for gameplay purposes, to have real feedback differences between lights and heavies ad have a more "cinematographic" rendering, so it doesn't bother me that much.

Back on the centurion, more than a question of technique, it's more a question of characterization and body language that tickles me from what I saw in the trailer (maybe ingame that will feel different). I don't expect from a military chief to troll his oponent with his thumb (will die, will not die ? hoho, lulz) and to heat an imginary crowd like in an arena. I expect him to be rational, experienced, clear minded with a strong hability to keep his cold blood, the most "cost efficient" and direct techniques possible, and body langage that support this . You strike, you kill, and go to the next. He's here to lead armies, to conquer, not to inflate balloons, no time to lose goofing around on the battlefield, he's not supposed to be a ****ing clown.

[TheRevanchist27]

For the bolded part, not that much actually (but I totally agree for the techiques)
A good longsword is not that much heavier than a katana in fact (since it was mentioned), or the saber i personnally used the most, a guom viet. and doesn't feel heavy neither if it's well balanced. And most antique asian blades (bronze age mostly) were double edged actually. Its interesting to ask onself why, at some point in history, did they find single edged blade better or more fit for their systems (even if double edged swords,are still used, like the chinese jian or viet kiem).
The heavy thick blade of the european longsword (like what you can see ingame) is kind of a myth, longswords were very agile weapons actually.
An example

Regarding realism and fencing. Warden is in a weird position. Some of his moves are totally realist a come directly from historical forms (Mordhau, half-sword, some strikes and stances...) some are out of place, like most heavy strikes actually, where he either spin around, or drag the blow far to much to be actually effective. But I understand it's for gameplay purposes, to have real feedback differences between lights and heavies ad have a more "cinematographic" rendering.

Perhaps I exaggerated the weight of the blade in comparison to the Katana just a smidge in my choice of language. I often make fun of swordsmanship techniques used in cinema and games, every time someone pirouettes and spins thinking "that's such a pretty way to get your spine severed" Hahaha!

In truth the average Longsword was anywhere between 3-5 lbs overall. The Katana had only a single sharpened edge and in truth it was only meant to be used as a "draw strike" weapon, good for a single stroke or two, going up against armor, a shield, or even another blade it ran the risk of chipping and even shattering outright.

When I speak of "weight" in the European blades, I more am speaking of their quality, how robust their designs were and how high in quality the steel was.

Are you sure? The saber was used well into WWI. Blade geometry has more to do with armor and unit tactics than the inherent quality of weapons.

The Saber is a blade type that's old as time. It regained popularity with cavalry and officers after the advent of firearms (like arquebrusiers and muskets) made armor and martial prowess 'mostly' a thing of the past.

With the death of cavalry formations (in WW-1) came the death of the practical use of a saber. Though if you wanted to argue the effectiveness of a weapon, the Scottish broadsword was in use up into WW-II just ask "Mad Jack" Churchill. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Churchill

The Katana as far as blades go was made of poor quality steel. The "folding techniques" that weebs harp on about were more a measure of compensation to add some strength to the VERY poor quality steel.

It's worth nothing Katanas were relatively well protected against by shields and most of Japan's primitive armor designs (primitive by European standards who had far exceeded the East in terms of metallurgy and blacksmithing practices).

[TheRevanchist27]

Speaking of historically accurate swordsmanship. I LOVE bringing up this video, showing some of the techniques applied in armor, while also dispelling some of the myths surrounding mobility.

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[Karma_Ghost]

The Saber is a blade type that's old as time. It regained popularity with cavalry and officers after the advent of firearms (like arquebrusiers and muskets) made armor and martial prowess 'mostly' a thing of the past.

With the death of cavalry formations (in WW-1) came the death of the practical use of a saber. Though if you wanted to argue the effectiveness of a weapon, the Scottish broadsword was in use up into WW-II just ask "Mad Jack" Churchill. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Churchill

I didn't. I just pointed out your statement about the west "phasing out" curved single edge designs was wrong. Tools are shaped the way they are to perform specific tasks. Your statement was similar to saying a ball-peen hammer is better than a sledge hammer. Different tools for different purposes. One is not inherently inferior to the other.

[TheRevanchist27]

I didn't. I just pointed out your statement about the west "phasing out" curved single edge designs was wrong. Tools are shaped the way they are to perform specific tasks. Your statement was similar to saying a ball-peen hammer is better than a sledge hammer. Different tools for different purposes. One is not inherently inferior to the other.

Okay, allow me to revise my statement as it is apparent that you wish to nitpick.

Within the context of the period(s) of history ( European medieval/early Renaissance) depicted. The single edged, slightly curved design of swords were indeed phased out as armor become more robust and available. Chainmail was lightweight, and plentiful and could deflect or turn away most all blades, let alone plate-mail.

When armors were shown to be mostly impractical by the time firearms became more widely used and available, the single-edged slightly curved design of swords made a comeback as armor was discarded in favor of soft uniforms (because firearms made armor expensive and impractical).

[Karma_Ghost]

Okay, allow me to revise my statement as it is apparent that you wish to nitpick.

Within the context of the period(s) of history ( European medieval/early Renaissance) depicted. The single edged, slightly curved design of swords were indeed phased out as armor become more robust and available. Chainmail was lightweight, and plentiful and could deflect or turn away most all blades, let alone plate-mail.

When armors were shown to be mostly impractical by the time firearms became more widely used and available, the single-edged slightly curved design of swords made a comeback as armor was discarded in favor of soft uniforms (because firearms made armor expensive and impractical).

If I wanted to nitpick I would have reminded you that your single example of a broadsword carried in WWII loses to the katana (shin gunto) carried by nearly every officer of the imperial japanese army and navy.

If I wanted to nitpick further, I'd remind you that in the ancient world, the most technologically superior steel came from the middle east (Syria) by way of India. The cultures of both known for using the curved single edge swords that you seem to automatically dismiss as inferior strictly because of a choice made in European history.

Your initial statement implies that Western designs are inherently by virtue of abandoning the single curved edge design in favor of straight double edge designs. I just stated that the shape has nothing to due with why one is better or worse than the other. The whole time I've just said they're used for different purposes and you seem to be trying to counter my argument by confirming my argument.

[TheRevanchist27]

-stuff-

I feel like there's a miscommunication here. I'm not arguing that blade shape was influenced by the job it was doing. Single edged slightly curved blades were popular in the Mid East and India because armor was impractical, soft armors and cloth were more common to endure the heat and humidity of those places.

In the colder climes of Europe though, heavier armors made that blade impractical.

Western designs abandoned the single curved edge because it became easier to forge straight blades for thrusting and multiple uses to hit the gaps in armor as well as to be used as bludgeoning weapons when handled in the Mordhau technique.


It seems like you're trying to argue for the sake of arguing.