Member
While there are a few glaring issues in For Honor, (defensive/turtle meta, attacking be foolish 90% of the time, imbalance in terms of who can confirm damage, how, and for how much) what ends up pushing this sort of stuff over the edge is the smaller and yet still important things that intensify the aforementioned issues.
So, let's work together to compile a decent list and get a handle on these things. A single, universal thread that can be bumped will help bring some clarity from the consumer side on what's bothering us as a whole.
So, we'll start with the obvious. 30fps console lock.
It's very simple - if you are going to force us to play in an inferior fps environment, including limiting the PS4 PRO to 30fps to "even the playing field", (an understandable stance) then it follows that when game factors (like the ability to respond to light attack spam, or parry lights, which is currently much harder compared to PC) are affected, you clearly need to have different balance for different environments.
So, why is this not happening? You are enforcing an FPS lock on the console users. If you aren't willing to balance around the settings you won't let us change, how can you call that balance? This alone contributes to a large amount of frustration from console players. This is what makes peacekeepers and valk players spam lights, because it is FAR harder to deal with compared to our PC counterparts, lowers the skill threshold for players of those heroes, and doesn't contribute to a satisfying game experience really for anyone involved. That is just one facet of the enforced FPS lock. The win ratio for people like Peacekeeper and Valk are actually LOWER on console.
But what does that stat tell you? It tells you what I mentioned before - console players of PK and Valk have a lower skill threshold than PC, because they can rely (and do) on cheap tactics that take advantage of the 30FPS lock - all this does is create frustration for their enemy, and prevents PK's and Valk's from growing in skill as a player. It's a lose/lose. Even if those less skilled players lose more overall (as they should) that actually shows the statistic proves the problem. They create far more stress than skilled exchanges, AND lose. NO ONE walks away from this situation feeling good.
Please, explain why you refuse to balance around an enforced gameplay environment we cannot change - one that is entirely different from PC players.
Secondly, a softer issue, but relevant.
Instantaneous special dash attacks. Most noticeable with Lawbro's impaling charge, so I'll focus there.
How has this not been changed? Obviously, any attack that requires some buildup to produce that much force, shouldn't be prone to abuse the way it is. Why is there not a half-to-full second requirement of dashing before you can initiate this attack? For clarity, I am speaking specifically on specials of this sort, not normal running heavies, those are fairly balanced. I am talking about special property attacks, like Raider's charging grab, Shugoki's charge of the Oni, and of course, Lawbro's impaling charge.
No one enjoys a Lawbro flexing their toe muscles for 0.25th's of a second and then immediately stabbing you and pushing you off a cliff 40 feet away. (Except for the initiator, because they know it's cheese.) There was nothing "earned" about this. The timing is not so tight that it expresses skill, mastery, or timing for your character. The fact you can do it on someone from a few feet away and pull them out of their revenge burst, the fact you can do it on demand in a teamfight to grant your teammates free hits that often guarantee death for the target, etc - these are all valid strategies for someone who EARNS the attack, but in it's current state, these type of attacks are totally cheesable that tend to run counter to the design principles of the game.
How has this flown under the radar for so long in a game that tries to emphasize skill based interactions and counter-play?
Third issue. This one is obvious.
Revive being so gamewarping.
Who ever thought the BASELINE of being revived should be full HP was a cool idea?
Because it is not. Holding circle for 1 full second should not undo an entire duel's worth of damage in a game with a defense meta.
On that note, how the hell is there no internal lock on being revived for a certain amount of time? There should be a solid 7-10 second "lockout" before someone can be revived, allowing 3v1 duels to actually potentially finish in the badass's favor.
Currently, all people do is cheap it out, by loop reviving the third person who falls infinitely (AT FULL HP LOL) and continuously throw bodies at the final survivor until they die.
Again, this is the opposite of skill based gameplay. This is cheap. Frankly, if a lockout was introduced - revenge mode should double the lockout time of someone you defeat, while you are in revenge mode. (Making it a 14-20 second lockout before revival, actually allowing someone to soft counter being mobbed to death and potentially win. Currently, the threshold to win is nigh impossible, because you cannot realistically execute all your enemies in a 2v1/3v1. This would provide an alternative that is fair.)
Of course, the design team can make it any value they want, but I think we can all agree that "less than full hp" should be mandatory, as well as "even less hp than the previous revive" for each continuous revive afterwards, before you actually die. Getting outplayed over and over should still be a punishment, come on.
It's positively ridiculous that someone gets revived at max hp. Maybe we all let it slide when we're on the receiving end, but in the end, this is lazy design, and does not contribute to satisfying gameplay.
Let's not even talk about people with max revive speed gear and quick revive as a passive. These people can revive someone during the animation of an incoming heavy attack, before it hits them. Hell, even some light attacks if you locked on to them a split second too late.
THAT, is seriously toxic in the current environment, where the person you revive comes back full HP. Ubi should feel some actual shame that this has existed as long as it has without any scrutiny.
Again, how has this flown totally under the radar?
While we are on this topic of revive, let's talk about abnormal execute conditions, and how they don't happen - but should.
For instance, jumping attacks. It already costs half your HP even if you LAND the attack, usually instantly KOing you if you miss.
Please explain to me how the person who gets hit with one of these deserves to be revived. If a 500 pound Lawbringer jumped off a 2 story building and dragged a Halberd through your skull, your skull would be spaghetti and meatballs.
You should not be able to be revived. Successful jump attacks should count as an execute. The cost vs reward here is stupid. You spend half your HP to 1 shot someone, and someone with quick revive brings them back up at full HP in less than a second? They can just dust em' off and scoop their brains back into their skull that fast, huh? Seriously, this should be looked at, in combination with the revive changes as described earlier.
Similarly, we have situations where Peacekeepers dodge attack(s), which is a heavy, counts as a heavy - meaning if she kills you with it, she can execute you. This is fine. What isn't fine, is this rule NOT being applied similarly across the board.
For instance, Orochi's Hurricane Blast out of deflect. This is a heavy attack, and now, with the super armor buff, this attack can actually be used in more than 1% of fights. However, even though it is a heavy attack, it doesn't trigger execute, leaving someone open to the LOL 100% HP revive. Please justify how properly timing a deflect and eating damage to super armor through their attempt to stop you, guessing right, or doing said deflect on the right stage of their combo, so that your heavy attack actually goes through and lands the killing blow - please justify how this doesn't deserve an execute, but Peacekeeper's LOL JUMP STAB or her sidestep stab can.
If you're going to make special property attacks that are heavy attacks trigger execute, then ALL of them should across the board. That's just basic ruleset design. Exceptions to that rule on a case by case basis is fine, but currently, there's no justification.
That is all I remember off the top of my head for now, aside from glaring issues with specific characters (like Raider's inability to heavy from a grab, or grab from a parry, absolutely ruining his ability to confirm damage, and the zone attack you can feint to try and open your opponent costing a prohibitive amount of stamina, to the point you are at a detriment even when you succeed) and the general problems with turtling, but those are actually being looked at.
Overall, it's the above issues that all accumulate on top of the obvious problems that make the game seriously infuriating to a lot of people. It is taking away from an otherwise enjoyable game experience. I want this game to succeed in spite of it's painful progress.
However, side issues like this that negatively impact the game experience and intended game design principles really need to be looked at, too. Some of this stuff requires very little work to fix, with a huge return on investment in terms of appreciation from the playerbase as a whole. Please give us a reason to have more confidence in you, Ubi.
If anyone has any additions to this, please feel free to share. The more this thread can become a big neon sign of "RELEVANT ISSUES HERE", the better.
Member
Update.
What is Catapult and why is it hands down the only completely unmitigatable 4 star ability in the game?
It is almost impossible to react to (it fires in less than a second), even when you can, the aoe is so big that more than 90% of the time it doesn't matter, and it 1 shots all targets it hits.
Compared to all the other 4 stars out there, how is this okay?
I was under the impression that the ideas of counter-play and meaningful exchanges back and forth between players to earn victory was supposed to be a core tenet of the design, here. MOST 4 star abilities reflect this.
Catapult just requires you have a pulse, and often abruptly wins a game entirely...for having a pulse.
That's a seriously clear imbalance in 4 star abilities running counter to the design of the game. Why?
Community Manager
Member
Thank you for responding. I've been reading the forums since playing in the beta, but I actually made an account to start posting because of the lack of focused conversation on these issues.
Most of the time I just see screeching about 50/50s, and I felt there were some other screeches to be heard too.
I was getting a little skittish seeing the topic get viewed and not a single other user saying even "yea" or "nay".
It warms my heart that anyone from Ubi has seen this feedback and thought on it, so I appreciate you taking the time to welcome me and hear me out.
Member
The lawbringers charge is is to defend against... It always comes from the side and when he is running. (Except after parry). I've had so many people simply parry it consistently. You also failed to mention valks shoulder charge that knocks you down in a group. If you're mentioning all those type of attacks then you can also throw in warden and warlords charge. But I'm also confused by your wording. Are you saying the lawbringer has a dashing attack or was that part for other classes?
Member
I agree with most of these points, just not the lawbringer one. You always defend from the left when he is running at you, and on block it depletes like 90% of his stamina. Easiest thing in the world to defend against, and it has nothing it can be mixed up with. Just something you need to learn to deal with.
Other than that, solid points I agree with.
Member
This doesn't account for when lawbringers can do this from less than 10 feet away on a target not focusing them.Originally Posted by Rikuto-san Go to original post
For instance, he can stutter dash and cancel into that charge during a 2v1 and get someone killed instantly, and revenge burst does not cancel the charge, and revenge bursts that don't perfectly reflect it get caught by it, either killing the person for using revenge or saving his teammates from the revenge parry said user did to the lawbringers teammates.
Which again, would be totally fair if it wasn't happening from less than 3 feet distance with little reaction time and zero tells.
The focus here being there is zero tells that it is happening, because by the time you see they have unlocked and done 1 halfstep of a dash, it's already too late.
My point is that this game isn't smash bros. It clearly isn't intended behavior for you to single frame dash cancel into a dash attack.
How it works currently, is that the moment the game recognizes you as having entered a dashing state, you can immediately cancel into a full dash attack.
There is currently way too much power in impaling charge, that you can access it in such a way.
Secondly, you've clearly never experienced the spacing a Lawbringer can do where the dash attack comes out so fast you have less than half a second to respond and it hits you instantly. They can unlock and dash and single frame cancel said dash into the attack WITHIN DUELING RANGE, and the attacks hitbox connects with you basically before you can react.
All something like that does is remove value from the parry version, which is supposed to be the one you use in a duel. That is why it exists.
The fact you can do it in so many situations on demand like that can't be the intended design, and is frankly game warping. Heavens forbid 2 Lawbringers do it back to back on 1 person in a 2v1. If you became the recipient of it in that situation, I guarantee you'd think twice about it.
