Flicker needs to go, immediatly | Forums

[Charmzzz]

...

Alright let's break this down.



Warden also gets two confirmed hits, but yes, this is Orochi's signature boring attack and one of the few great things he has. Peacekeeper, however, has such a fast 2nd light that characters with slow guard / reflex block most always cannot block the second hit, basically making her Orochi but in every direction. Faster guard characters can negate this.



I mean against an idiot that doesn't know how to roll or dodge attack, sure, Hurricane Blast is better. However, against people with brains, Wind Gust is the only guaranteed damage, and that only does 25. PK's Deflect does more, so it isn't better, its worse.



Measuring by frames is a bad idea due to variable framerates. Orochi's ZA is 500ms, PK's is 400ms, which is a massive difference. With Orochi, even if he flickers, the Zone Animation is extremely distinct and I can parry it fairly reliably. PK's Zone Attack has almost no windup and just sort of "happens", all while being faster, and being cancellable, with faster recovery. Its vastly better in every single way.



...and GB gives PK at the very minimum 42 damage, 7 more than the max GB punish from Orochi. That's not even counting double stab kick wallstun into forward r2, for over 60 damage.

Who cares about Debuff reduction, no one is basing balance off of Gear Stats.

Ok, so you want to tell me that a GUARANTEED second hit is NOT better than a chance to hit? It is fast, yes, but it is still blockable and parryable / deflectable. Your argumentation is lacking...

Next Deflect: Orochi has 3 Options basically off of a Deflect: Light, Heavy, GB. PK has 1. Who can play mindgames with 1? If Orochi manages to land 1-2 Deflect he probably gets a Heavy off after, which is massive Damage.

Ok, my POV is from PC, playing with 144hz Monitor and same with frames, you could be right on Console that it is a big difference. Can't feel it on PC. On 30 FPS it is 300ms - 400ms, so I can understand the problem with it. Better guard your right side I guess.

So you don't want to take the "extra" Defense Stats against PK into the calculation? Really? In Duel, ok, you are right. It does more damage. But every other mode... I guess Ubi wont balance Characters for Duel, the main mode is Dominion.

[ScottJund]

Ok, so you want to tell me that a GUARANTEED second hit is NOT better than a chance to hit? It is fast, yes, but it is still blockable and parryable / deflectable. Your argumentation is lacking...

Next Deflect: Orochi has 3 Options basically off of a Deflect: Light, Heavy, GB. PK has 1. Who can play mindgames with 1? If Orochi manages to land 1-2 Deflect he probably gets a Heavy off after, which is massive Damage.

Ok, my POV is from PC, playing with 144hz Monitor and same with frames, you could be right on Console that it is a big difference. Can't feel it on PC. On 30 FPS it is 300ms - 400ms, so I can understand the problem with it. Better guard your right side I guess.

So you don't want to take the "extra" Defense Stats against PK into the calculation? Really? In Duel, ok, you are right. It does more damage. But every other mode... I guess Ubi wont balance Characters for Duel, the main mode is Dominion.

Let me preface this by saying I am talking about fighting at high level / tournament level play, so we may be talking in different mindsets here.

I would happily lose my guaranteed 2nd hit if it meant I could attack from more than one direction, yes, 100%. When you really only have one massive threat, a monkey can be trained to block it.

First off, Orochi doesn't get a Guard Break off of Deflect. The only way that could ever happen is if you Hurricane Blast, the opponent dodges once only for some reason, and then you guard break them in their dodge. This doesn't work on good players whatsoever. Hurricane Blast can be avoided by every single character in the game in an unpunishable fashion, and this is after you already hit a Deflect on them. So your only really viable option is Wind Gust, for 25 damage, which again, is less than Peacekeeper's Deflect. Orochi's Deflect is unique in that it is the only one in the game that can very easily in fact do zero damage. Regardless of all of this, parrying is better than Deflecting and every class can do that. You also don't "get a heavy off after" a Deflect actually hits someone, I don't know where you got that.

Millisecond-measured time has nothing to do with framerate. It doesn't vary between console and PC.

[Rikuto01]

Honestly I have no idea how to do it, maybe I do it occasionally by accident? Teach me how to flicker plz!

Yes, this should be fixed asap. Screws my plays totally to go vs a Warden / Orochi who only does 2 Moves: Top Light, Flicker-Zone...

And that exact reason is why it currently cannot go.

If they are only capable of landing one of two attacks, what happens when you remove the viability of one of them? There is no longer a guess, and nothing lands.

[Charmzzz]

Let me preface this by saying I am talking about fighting at high level / tournament level play, so we may be talking in different mindsets here.

I would happily lose my guaranteed 2nd hit if it meant I could attack from more than one direction, yes, 100%. When you really only have one massive threat, a monkey can be trained to block it.

First off, Orochi doesn't get a Guard Break off of Deflect. The only way that could ever happen is if you Hurricane Blast, the opponent dodges once only for some reason, and then you guard break them in their dodge. This doesn't work on good players whatsoever. Hurricane Blast can be avoided by every single character in the game in an unpunishable fashion, and this is after you already hit a Deflect on them. So your only really viable option is Wind Gust, for 25 damage, which again, is less than Peacekeeper's Deflect. Orochi's Deflect is unique in that it is the only one in the game that can very easily in fact do zero damage. Regardless of all of this, parrying is better than Deflecting and every class can do that. You also don't "get a heavy off after" a Deflect actually hits someone, I don't know where you got that.

Millisecond-measured time has nothing to do with framerate. It doesn't vary between console and PC.

1. You get a Deflect. You can press - light, heavy, GB. If you use 1-2 times the Heavy after Deflect, what do you think your opponent will do next time? Correct, Dodge. So press GB after Deflect. Same as LB does now with Shove, goes for 1-2 Lights, then suddenly presses GB and grads the dodging guy.

2. Seriously? https://toolstud.io/video/framerate.php
You have more time to react on PC because your Monitor refreshes more often. That's why blocking PK Light Attack is not that big problem on PC...

[Charmzzz]

And that exact reason is why it currently cannot go.

If they are only capable of landing one of two attacks, what happens when you remove the viability of one of them? There is no longer a guess, and nothing lands.

So Flicker should stay? Cant be serious... You maybe have to play mindgames with Heavy Feints? That's what I do on PK even... Flicker shows a WRONG indicator and has to be fixed. Buff Orochi after, I have no problem with that, but remove that bug!

[ScottJund]

1. You get a Deflect. You can press - light, heavy, GB. If you use 1-2 times the Heavy after Deflect, what do you think your opponent will do next time? Correct, Dodge. So press GB after Deflect. Same as LB does now with Shove, goes for 1-2 Lights, then suddenly presses GB and grads the dodging guy.

2. Seriously? https://toolstud.io/video/framerate.php
You have more time to react on PC because your Monitor refreshes more often. That's why blocking PK Light Attack is not that big problem on PC...

1.) Again, all of this is completely countered by rolling backwards. No amount of mindgames stops an opponent from just..rolling backwards. You can even roll directly forwards and it will miss. Its stupidly easy to dodge.

2.) That's not what I meant. Milliseconds and frames are completely different measurements. You said PK's Zone is 300-400ms on console as if the duration of the animation is different on PC, which it isn't.

[Charmzzz]

1.) Again, all of this is completely countered by rolling backwards. No amount of mindgames stops an opponent from just..rolling backwards. You can even roll directly forwards and it will miss. Its stupidly easy to dodge.

2.) That's not what I meant. Milliseconds and frames are completely different measurements. You said PK's Zone is 300-400ms on console as if the duration of the animation is different on PC, which it isn't.

1. Never saw that happen when I deflected into Light. Literally never. But good to know. Mostly people will be too surprised be the Deflect imo, it is really fast.

2. Misunderstood. The Animation is 9 Frames compared to 12 Frames. But depending on your FPS you have more or less time to react.

[Rikuto01]

1. You get a Deflect. You can press - light, heavy, GB. If you use 1-2 times the Heavy after Deflect, what do you think your opponent will do next time? Correct, Dodge. So press GB after Deflect. Same as LB does now with Shove, goes for 1-2 Lights, then suddenly presses GB and grads the dodging guy.

2. Seriously? https://toolstud.io/video/framerate.php
You have more time to react on PC because your Monitor refreshes more often. That's why blocking PK Light Attack is not that big problem on PC...

1. No one in their right mind is going to guess twice to get the same payout as guessing once.

2. Frame rate helps very slightly. The real problem is the intense input delay present on PS4 and Xbone hardware. Frame rate simply happens to be the most visible difference between PC and console versions so people love to blame it on that.

[ScottJund]

1. Never saw that happen when I deflected into Light. Literally never. But good to know. Mostly people will be too surprised be the Deflect imo, it is really fast.

2. Misunderstood. The Animation is 9 Frames compared to 12 Frames. But depending on your FPS you have more or less time to react.

Uh you wanna show me proof that attacks are intentionally different durations from console to PC? Not different frames, actual physical time.

Its 12 frames @30 fps, or 0.4s.

[Charmzzz]

Uh you wanna show me proof that attacks are intentionally different durations from console to PC? Not different frames, actual physical time.

Its 12 frames @30 fps, or 0.4s.

12 frames @30 fps = 0.4s
9 frames @30 fps = 0.3s

12 frames @60 fps = 0.2s
9 frames @60 fps = 0.15s

But that is not relevant. When the indicator shows + input lag + Monitor refresh rate + FPS, that combined is relevant. Have no data for that.