Heroes balance IMO | Forums

[Knight_Raime]

1) Dash attacks shouldn't be unsafe on block. but zone attacks should be. They have decent damage and good speed. the player who is able to block those on reaction should be rewarded with a GB. Slowing them down would only make the moves obsolete.

2) Devs said in todays warriors den that they are going to make every hero's switch speed the same.

3) No and no. The vortex is the warden's opener. the heros in the meta are the one's who can open turtle play. We shouldn't remove that. Also crushing counter is perfectly fine. Parries themselves need to be nerfed and they will be at some point. we just don't know how.

4) I don't think conq should be touched till they've made successful changes to the turtle meta. Him and warlord are designed around turtling. and I think it's too hard to mess with either of them further without ruining either until the defensive meta has been pulled down.

5) Valk's second light on console mid combo is virtually impossible to counter due to the 30 fps lock. you'd be speeding up her second light by doing that. PK is fine on console. She's actually doing the worst on console compared to pc. Her speed is her tool. She's already the squishiest. And they've made her much more punishable now.

6) It's perfectly fine. stamina damage currently means nothing. and it's not a real 50/50. The lawbringer is designed to be a more defensive character. Both him and valk do the same thing. they both disable and widdle down the opponent. Valk's is more of an aggressive approach. Law is more of a defensive one. And people really need to hop off of the "encourages defensive meta" train. Some characters are SUPPOSED to play that way. The mechanics of defense are what make the meta. That would be parries, OOS not being a problem, and lack of meaningful chip damage. Also combos not being a thing. but that's iffy. If law's too strong after they address those things we can nerf him. until then people just need to learn how to play around it. He's far easier to out play than a turtle warlord.

7) -shrug- he just needs more confirmable damage imo.

8) headbutt isn't free damage if you're an assassin fyi. and it's been nerfed enough that you can react to it and punish it. throw distance deff needs toning back. Other than that I wouldn't know what else to do. Since he's built to react to any situation. Which while I think is a stupid design of the character (like shugoki just being damage and conq just being defense) it's only really a problem right now because the mechanics surrounding defensive play are too strong. once that's taken care of he will be easier to handle. Maybe reducing the damage of his heavies/or toning back the lunge range on his zone.

9) Zerker is fine. defense is too strong. Once chip damage and combos get buffed zerker will be meta. 100%

10) Biased af because she's stupidly hard to deal with on console. I agree she's balanced as a concept. Her shoulder pin needs buffing. And her dash attack shouldn't be unsafe (though leaping attack still should be) other than that though she's fine.

11) **** no. Kensei's speed is too strong on console. They need to make his dashes not unsafe on block. If that is done he'd be strong.

12) Shugoki needs some nerfs and some buffs. Oni charge should get the knockdown back but only if you run x distance. that way it's still a usable thing in 4v4's but not abusable. Goki's HA should only be active on attacks. Trading as a concept is fine but only when it's smart trading. His damage makes his trades brain dead and something to always go for. Thus putting it only on attacks means goki has to actually risk something. Demon's embrace needs to do flat damage and a flat heal. No less or more depending on health. Being able to heal yourself at all is strong enough. Switch speed is being brought up so that's the only other buff he needed.

13) As orochi is my main I'll have to disagree with you completely. his top lights are THE main tool for punishing whiffs. Which is what he's about. If you bring up the speed on his sides they will be as fast as a zone. and you'll never want to zone again (which is unsafe on block) so no. The only attack direction that might need a buff is his right. since his zone is always left and he's got his dangerous uppers. But nothing meaningful on his right. Doesn't mean that should be changed though. Riptide strike should be tweaked to have proper dodge frames as some attacks still go through anyway. but that's it.
Storm rush either needs to be more cancelable the farther in the animation or you need to be able to soft feint it with other moves like lighting strike or zypher strike. Storm rush doesn't need to be easier at landing. it just needs to be better for mix up potential since it's meant to be used as a whiff punish.

14) Bushi is 100% fine since they made hidden stance more reliable. Her game is all about mix ups. Like light feint into heavy feint into GB for a top heavy. They could potentially reduce some of her stamina cost. But that might be too strong. I think we should wait with her until the defensive meta has passed.

[lory2]

1) Dash attacks shouldn't be unsafe on block. but zone attacks should be. They have decent damage and good speed. the player who is able to block those on reaction should be rewarded with a GB. Slowing them down would only make the moves obsolete.

2) Devs said in todays warriors den that they are going to make every hero's switch speed the same.

3) No and no. The vortex is the warden's opener. the heros in the meta are the one's who can open turtle play. We shouldn't remove that. Also crushing counter is perfectly fine. Parries themselves need to be nerfed and they will be at some point. we just don't know how.

4) I don't think conq should be touched till they've made successful changes to the turtle meta. Him and warlord are designed around turtling. and I think it's too hard to mess with either of them further without ruining either until the defensive meta has been pulled down.

5) Valk's second light on console mid combo is virtually impossible to counter due to the 30 fps lock. you'd be speeding up her second light by doing that. PK is fine on console. She's actually doing the worst on console compared to pc. Her speed is her tool. She's already the squishiest. And they've made her much more punishable now.

6) It's perfectly fine. stamina damage currently means nothing. and it's not a real 50/50. The lawbringer is designed to be a more defensive character. Both him and valk do the same thing. they both disable and widdle down the opponent. Valk's is more of an aggressive approach. Law is more of a defensive one. And people really need to hop off of the "encourages defensive meta" train. Some characters are SUPPOSED to play that way. The mechanics of defense are what make the meta. That would be parries, OOS not being a problem, and lack of meaningful chip damage. Also combos not being a thing. but that's iffy. If law's too strong after they address those things we can nerf him. until then people just need to learn how to play around it. He's far easier to out play than a turtle warlord.

7) -shrug- he just needs more confirmable damage imo.

8) headbutt isn't free damage if you're an assassin fyi. and it's been nerfed enough that you can react to it and punish it. throw distance deff needs toning back. Other than that I wouldn't know what else to do. Since he's built to react to any situation. Which while I think is a stupid design of the character (like shugoki just being damage and conq just being defense) it's only really a problem right now because the mechanics surrounding defensive play are too strong. once that's taken care of he will be easier to handle. Maybe reducing the damage of his heavies/or toning back the lunge range on his zone.

9) Zerker is fine. defense is too strong. Once chip damage and combos get buffed zerker will be meta. 100%

10) Biased af because she's stupidly hard to deal with on console. I agree she's balanced as a concept. Her shoulder pin needs buffing. And her dash attack shouldn't be unsafe (though leaping attack still should be) other than that though she's fine.

11) **** no. Kensei's speed is too strong on console. They need to make his dashes not unsafe on block. If that is done he'd be strong.

12) Shugoki needs some nerfs and some buffs. Oni charge should get the knockdown back but only if you run x distance. that way it's still a usable thing in 4v4's but not abusable. Goki's HA should only be active on attacks. Trading as a concept is fine but only when it's smart trading. His damage makes his trades brain dead and something to always go for. Thus putting it only on attacks means goki has to actually risk something. Demon's embrace needs to do flat damage and a flat heal. No less or more depending on health. Being able to heal yourself at all is strong enough. Switch speed is being brought up so that's the only other buff he needed.

13) As orochi is my main I'll have to disagree with you completely. his top lights are THE main tool for punishing whiffs. Which is what he's about. If you bring up the speed on his sides they will be as fast as a zone. and you'll never want to zone again (which is unsafe on block) so no. The only attack direction that might need a buff is his right. since his zone is always left and he's got his dangerous uppers. But nothing meaningful on his right. Doesn't mean that should be changed though. Riptide strike should be tweaked to have proper dodge frames as some attacks still go through anyway. but that's it.
Storm rush either needs to be more cancelable the farther in the animation or you need to be able to soft feint it with other moves like lighting strike or zypher strike. Storm rush doesn't need to be easier at landing. it just needs to be better for mix up potential since it's meant to be used as a whiff punish.

14) Bushi is 100% fine since they made hidden stance more reliable. Her game is all about mix ups. Like light feint into heavy feint into GB for a top heavy. They could potentially reduce some of her stamina cost. But that might be too strong. I think we should wait with her until the defensive meta has passed.

i honestly don't know how you can say that pk's lights are manageble but valk's one no...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm5L19vZiEg check this out. valks second light is 18 frames, pk 12! i think that pk oe should be set to 15 frames, will still be 100 ms faster than valk's one (100 ms is a lot btw), but they will be at least a bit more reactable.
as i said i was talking about the actual meta, i agree with you with a lot of things if the game will get out of turtle meta.
btw shugoki's DE does flat damage that is 40, dunno about the heal but i think it's always the same, for this i think that he should do a bit less with regular DE, but should get back the option to feint unblockables.

about the headbutt, it's almost always free damage and it's too fast imo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPF_QafJ4jY&t=20s it's 100 ms faster than valk's shield bash(that has no guaranteed damage, only mixup, and has way more miss recovery), and 200 ms faster than LB' shove(that grants a punishable ''50/50'').

orochi's zone is not unsafe on block btw, unless you are fighting a conqueror.your idea of side dashes attacks safe and zones unsafe is very good, i like.

about warden, i'm not saying take out shoulder charge, thus he will be able to open with it, i said make bot shoulder charge faster( normal and charged one), so that charging SB is the punish for a early dodge, so take out that GB cancel like they did for every other move like this in the game.
also SC should cost a bit more stamina IMO, i mean look how crazy that can be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jETgDKRUlgc

[Knight_Raime]

i honestly don't know how you can say that pk's lights are manageble but valk's one no...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm5L19vZiEg check this out. valks second light is 18 frames, pk 12! i think that pk oe should be set to 15 frames, will still be 100 ms faster than valk's one (100 ms is a lot btw), but they will be at least a bit more reactable.
as i said i was talking about the actual meta, i agree with you with a lot of things if the game will get out of turtle meta.
btw shugoki's DE does flat damage that is 40, dunno about the heal but i think it's always the same, for this i think that he should do a bit less with regular DE, but should get back the option to feint unblockables.

about the headbutt, it's almost always free damage and it's too fast imo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPF_QafJ4jY&t=20s it's 100 ms faster than valk's shield bash(that has no guaranteed damage, only mixup, and has way more miss recovery), and 200 ms faster than LB' shove(that grants a punishable ''50/50'').

orochi's zone is not unsafe on block btw, unless you are fighting a conqueror.your idea of side dashes attacks safe and zones unsafe is very good, i like.

about warden, i'm not saying take out shoulder charge, thus he will be able to open with it, i said make bot shoulder charge faster( normal and charged one), so that charging SB is the punish for a early dodge, so take out that GB cancel like they did for every other move like this in the game.
also SC should cost a bit more stamina IMO, i mean look how crazy that can be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jETgDKRUlgc

1) I'm referring to valks second light in the combo of light light. I'm not sure how fast it is. but there is documented proof somewhere on the competitive subreddit showing on console that if you eat a light from valk and then try to switch guard to deal with the second it physically doesn't happen till after the second light hits because the switch gets buffered. This doesn't happen with any other hero as far as I know.

2) The damage he does with DE and the health he gets back from it directly scales off of how much health he has. if he's in his last bar of health DE will one shot anyone and he will get healed to full. It just needs to be a set amount.

3) if it gets slowed down further i'd have no quam with it. I'm just saying as is right now I think it's semi reasonable to react to. not sure about normal guard stance but assassin reflex guard stance lets you block the follow up attack from it. Going into all guard stance does as well so long as you start going into it right before you're hit by the headbutt.

4) i'll have to go do some testing then. Because i've never had an orochi tech my GB on him after I block his zone. If it's not unsafe it should be just like every other zone.

5) I think the cancel needs to stay for mix up potential. It's been nerfed enough that even semi decent players can dodge an sb and punish you for it. Wouldn't mind if the stam cost was upped though.

[Brologna_Xeno]

Stamina Damage does amount to a good deal for LB. Get someone exhausted and just work your Unblockable combo rotation, feinting it to bait another parry to knock them down, rinse repeat. Not as easy as it is for Raider but still works.

[lory2]

1) I'm referring to valks second light in the combo of light light. I'm not sure how fast it is. but there is documented proof somewhere on the competitive subreddit showing on console that if you eat a light from valk and then try to switch guard to deal with the second it physically doesn't happen till after the second light hits because the switch gets buffered. This doesn't happen with any other hero as far as I know.

2) The damage he does with DE and the health he gets back from it directly scales off of how much health he has. if he's in his last bar of health DE will one shot anyone and he will get healed to full. It just needs to be a set amount.

3) if it gets slowed down further i'd have no quam with it. I'm just saying as is right now I think it's semi reasonable to react to. not sure about normal guard stance but assassin reflex guard stance lets you block the follow up attack from it. Going into all guard stance does as well so long as you start going into it right before you're hit by the headbutt.

4) i'll have to go do some testing then. Because i've never had an orochi tech my GB on him after I block his zone. If it's not unsafe it should be just like every other zone.

5) I think the cancel needs to stay for mix up potential. It's been nerfed enough that even semi decent players can dodge an sb and punish you for it. Wouldn't mind if the stam cost was upped though.

as you see in the video, the second light of a valk is 18 frames(it should be registered at 30 fps), whle the second light of a PK is 12. probably that's why you see a lot of pks in competitive but not that much valks. the bug about the sweep not being dodgeable 'cause of guard switch must be addressed of course, but the second light of the PK should be 15 frames, that is still 100 ms faster than valks one, that according to you is very fast.

about shugoki, his DE should be flat damage, outside of critical area of course, i'm not 100% sure but a post on reddit whit a table with all moves damage said DE 40 damage, critical DE 10k damage.

about GB cancel mixup potential... well that's not a mixup, that's a vortex. the mixup should be done with the charged SC. You say that kensei is strong, but he's nowhere near warden, warden>>Kensei.

Just for curiosity, which heroes do you main?

[lory2]

Stamina Damage does amount to a good deal for LB. Get someone exhausted and just work your Unblockable combo rotation, feinting it to bait another parry to knock them down, rinse repeat. Not as easy as it is for Raider but still works.

dude, not to be rude but:

1) every medium or higher skill player, when exausted, will dodge every shove and tech every gb, since the shove is >700 ms, while conq SB and warlord HB are around 500 ms.
that's why i suggested take out shove of block(that is lame and wannabe-LBs are abusing right now) and make his regular shove faster.

2) that's not even the central point of the discussion

[Knight_Raime]

as you see in the video, the second light of a valk is 18 frames(it should be registered at 30 fps), whle the second light of a PK is 12. probably that's why you see a lot of pks in competitive but not that much valks. the bug about the sweep not being dodgeable 'cause of guard switch must be addressed of course, but the second light of the PK should be 15 frames, that is still 100 ms faster than valks one, that according to you is very fast.

about shugoki, his DE should be flat damage, outside of critical area of course, i'm not 100% sure but a post on reddit whit a table with all moves damage said DE 40 damage, critical DE 10k damage.

about GB cancel mixup potential... well that's not a mixup, that's a vortex. the mixup should be done with the charged SC. You say that kensei is strong, but he's nowhere near warden, warden>>Kensei.

Just for curiosity, which heroes do you main?

If it's a bug I wasn't aware. I dunno if pk lights should be slowed though. they already made the recovry from her second light more if you don't follow it up with a heavy. I'm hesitant to do anything to pk's speed because that's her advantage.

eh. I suppose. as long as he can't heal to full and one shot someone with demon's embrace.

I feel like kensei is strong because of his mix up potential. His problem is that he can't do his mix ups. If his dash attacks were safe on block I feel like we'd see a lot more success with him. I'm saying either committing to a bash or canceling for a GB is his mixup. The vortex is the fact that he can repeatedly do that. and imo I think it's fine that he can. Just incease the stamina cost and it won't be spammable.

I don't really "main" a certain person. My most experience is with orochi since i'm counting both beta times along with release time. But I've got orochi at rep 1. lawbringer at rep 1. zerker at rep one. warden at rep 1. and conq nearly at rep 1. I've dabbled a good bit with bushi and goki. and in one of the beta's I put in a lot of time with the pk. Really the only hero's I don't have decent experience with are valk, raider, warlord, and kensei.

[bananaflow2017]

i would actually give her some more tools if her second light was made a little slower, at least he would be more fun to play against. atm on console is like light,light, light, light, flicker zone, light, light, heavy feint GB( PK doesn't even have to press the feint button to do this), light, light, flicker zone... and so on

She got Tools. But when people only use lights they just limit theire own kit.
Im playing in console and it's nearly a 1/3.
Heavy feint into double light. This speed is just so fast that it's (for me) impossible to guardswitch in time....
I have no numbers for it, but it really fells impossible zu block or even parry...