Lawbringer's "50/50" | Forums

[Knight_Raime]

Yes I know another topic about it. I wanted to make a "complete" perspective on it. To set it apart from other threads. First. what is a 50/50? It is a term in fighting games used to describe a situation in which the opponent can do 2 things. These 2 things can't be reacted to. the player has to guess and if they guess wrong they eat a hit. You also can't have a way to trump the 50/50. Meaning if I could just block either hit or just dodge either hit it's not a 50/50. In for honor double back dashing gets you out of everything as far as i'm aware. But for the sake of arguing it doesn't seem that's taken into account so we won't.

What is the supposed 50/50 lawbringer has? Blocking a hit into a shove. from that shove the lawbringer can either throw a light or a guard break. Technically there are a few other things he could do. But to simplify it that's what people have been mainly focusing on.

Why is this a hot topic? Because in a recent patch the devs fixed an issue with a a light after a shove. Many people believe that the patch is saying you can't block period after the shove. However the patch actually stated they fixed it so you can't SWITCH GUARDS to block the light after a shove. That doesn't mean the attack is 100% unblockable. Truetalent made a claim a few days ago that it was a 50/50. Sypher posted a video after this showing that it was not a 50/50. True's response to the video was that it's not proof because it wasn't a real fight. and basically implied that it was staged. Even though the guy sypher fought was told to throw out lights, gb's, and heavy feints randomly.
So true today has been fighting subs in private matches both him and his opponent going out of their way to prove/disprove it being a 50/50. So basically the same thing sypher did. But let's set aside the hipocracy. True wasn't aware that you could block the light if you threw it out in the same direction their guard was in when you shoved them. So it's realistic to assume that true isn't aware of everything the law is capable of. So he can't and shouldn't be saying it's a 50/50 with such confidence.

So is it a 50/50? It depends on you honestly. If you think the ability to double dash away from everything should matter in 50/50's than for honor has none. I personally don't believe it's a 50/50 because it's not consistent. Throwing a light in the direction of their guard doesn't get you a light. and if you gb instead that can be teched. ON top of that there are heros that can dodge to reset their block stance. further showing how it's not consistent. Finally I want to state that it's very possible the only reason these lights/gb's are landing is simply because no one is used to this stuff yet.

Lawbringer wasn't in the competitive scene until he was buffed. Not only that but most still don't believe he's competitive viable even with the buffs. I'm open to the possibility that sypher is just a god at the game so it's reactable to him. but not to most good players. However. The light in particular isn't faster than a pk light. and most competitive players can react to pk's lights. So to say you can't react to the follow up light in my opinion is just silly. The only thing the shove does is remove your ability to switch stances. It doesn't prevent anything else. And since there are other things you can do it's not impossible to deal with.

True blames reflexes all the time for silly mistakes he makes. So the argument that people simply not used to it still holds ground as far as i'm concerned.

[Oupyz]

i want to see Sypher in real fight dodging block shove llight or block shove gb

let me telll lyou he cannot , cause when he did a stage fight where latency was perfect and he knew it was coming , he failed to dodge it 100% and he said himself sometimes u will eat it sometimes u will dodge it which makes it a 50/50 and that's a staged game with perfect latency

now lets take the option where it's a real fight and not a perfect latency situation , what do u think woullld have happeeneed ??

yeah correct block shove is broken and must to go

i woulldn''t mind normal shove to function as it is functioning now though

[Knight_Raime]

i want to see Sypher in real fight dodging block shove llight or block shove gb

let me telll lyou he cannot , cause when he did a stage fight where latency was perfect and he knew it was coming , he failed to dodge it 100% and he said himself sometimes u will eat it sometimes u will dodge it which makes it a 50/50 and that's a staged game with perfect latency

now lets take the option where it's a real fight and not a perfect latency situation , what do u think woullld have happeeneed ??

yeah correct block shove is broken and must to go

i woulldn''t mind normal shove to function as it is functioning now though

did you read what I posted? something being reactable doesn't mean you'll always react to it. people make mistakes. I think we should wait a week or 2 for people to get used to law being around and if people still struggle to react to it then we can call it a 50/50 for pc. i'd be willing to say it's a 50/50 on console just because things are harder to react to there. But so far i've not had much of an issue reacting to it on console. though maybe that's due to the fact that i've got a lot of experience with LB.

which reminds me. Tru counters a valk's 50/50 most of the time because he knows the character well. but he still calls it a 50/50. should we call him out on words too?

[Brologna_Xeno]

for me the with 1vs1, the block > shove issue i have isn't the 50/50 follow up of it. Its the stamina damage.

They need to remove or lighten the stamina penalty on being blocked, Already getting punished a hundred different ways for initiating combat from idle. Bonus stamina loss from being blocked, stamina loss from being shoved, stamina loss from dashing / GB. LB can eat your stamina better than a Shug.

That I find more frustrating than the move itself. Its not limited to LB shove though. No-Gear matches, stamina is just too limited, exhaust recovery times are too long. We all need a little more gas in the tank and a better MPG.

[Felis_Menari]

for me the with 1vs1, the block > shove issue i have isn't the 50/50 follow up of it. Its the stamina damage.

They need to remove or lighten the stamina penalty on being blocked, Already getting punished a hundred different ways for initiating combat from idle. Bonus stamina loss from being blocked, stamina loss from being shoved, stamina loss from dashing / GB. LB can eat your stamina better than a Shug.

That I find more frustrating than the move itself. Its not limited to LB shove though. No-Gear matches, stamina is just too limited, exhaust recovery times are too long. We all need a little more gas in the tank and a better MPG.

I guess you could say that is a distinguishing feature of LB's moveset (stamina damage). Shugoki, and others have their own quirks that set them apart from the rest that gives them advantages that other characters simply don't have.

[Felis_Menari]

But all UBs that aren't direct weapon attacks (hence, impossible to parry) deal stamina damage.

Among those, the Warden shoulderbash, Conq shieldbash, and Warlord headbutt activate immediately as opening attack without requiring a prior setup to hit or whiff. Whereas, the Shug headbutt requires a 1st light/heavy to hit, and the Valk shieldcharge requires a considerably longer setup time (or, a prior attack to land/whiff). The Warlord, Warden, and Conq are considered to be super-powerful, the Valk and Shug, not.

Then we have the Lawb. Has a shove, which activates as an opening attack without requiring a prior setup to hit or whiff.

So where does the Lawb fit in? With the Warden, Warlord, Conq group? Or with the Shug, Valk group?

I was referring to the LB's larger than average stamina damage toolset that helps set him apart, not just bash attacks.

[Knight_Raime]

Empirically, the use of the term "50/50" is generally accepted when the initiator of the situation can expect a reasonable return from it, so he deems it's more profitable for him to use it, rather than not, because the chances of it succeeding is viewed as being much higher than failing.

Or, this logic explained in simpler terms, if a "50/50" situation can truly be countered easily, and therefore if the receiver also retains a fair chance of countering the initiator and punishing him severely, then elementary logic dictates that the particular "50/50" move/tactic would not be used so repetitively (=spammed) in the first place. In other words, people don't spam a certain skill/tactic if experience teaches them that it will be countered around half the time and punishes you. People spam certain skill/tactic because they know that it's unlikely to be backfired, and generally the odds are extremely in favor of themselves.

That's actually what most of the "skill X is not OP, I counter it fine, there are counters it" folk miss when they talk in defense of such skills.

It's not whether a theoretical counter exists or not, nor you can personally counter it, or know some famous guy or someone who can do it on YouTube. It's about the general probability, the variables surrounding the particular skill, tactic, situation that effects the consistency and/or validity of such a tactic.


If the Warden's vortex was as easy to counter, or can be countered fairly, if the Lawb's shove and situation that follows was inconsistent, if any of such similar "spam-related" skills/tactics were really had a reasonable chance of being countered overall, people wouldn't be spamming it in the first place.

Just think about "turtling" in FH.

Why do people turtle? Because people know trying to be aggressive and opening up with attacks, "gets countered reasonably easily". Hence, people simply gave up on "aggressive." Under the current meta, if such skills/tactics in question were really countered easily, people would simply not use them. So, let's just pause for a moment and think about the turtlemeta, which makes everyone so afraid to make the first move. If the particular skills/tactics in question are consistently used, and even abused, to the point of becoming a source of mass frustration, despite the "turtlemeta", is that not by itself a testament to how grossly overpowered it is in general?

It would be really nice if people could settle on what a 50/50 is. As I understand it in general fighting terms a 50/50 is an action which you can do 1 of 2 things and the opponent has to guess it. If the opponent is able to easily react to it or there is a way to trump either option easily without guessing it's not a 50/50.

I still firmly feel it's easily reactable to and people need to build muscle memory to it. Like if the LB is going to GB you won't see a red indicator immediately and thus can just stand and CGB. or if you see red right after the shove just dodge. Yeah the timing is tight. but it's still not hard to figure out.

Warden's 50/50 is different in that instead of an indicator for an attack you have to actually watch the character model. because you're trying to guess between a bash or a GB. which is more difficult imo. and you can't just throw a light out because the warden can cancel and parry you. SO you have to actually read the situation. VS laws where you don't need to read. You just need to react.

[Knight_Raime]

Let's put it this way.

People who are used to profits gained from 50/50 mechanics have a tedency to show someone dodging bullets and then argue, "See? Guns are counterable". The line of reasoning you use in your argument of how Lawb shove doesn't count as a 50/50, is actually the exact same thing the Warden players themselves use when they argue that SBamming is not OP.

Different? No sir, it's the same. At least, according to SBamming Wardens. See, when that orange visual queue fires up, you get ready for a CGB.. and if a GB doesn't come out upto the timing where GB cancelling becomes impossible, you go into a side dodge. SBamming easily countered. If you can't do it, then it means you're just not practiced well enough.

Except you've fought against Wardens, and I know you already know why explanations like those are bullshi*. Everyone does.

It's basically the same with Lawb shoves -- you can show people that certain YouTube vid that's been propagating around about how a certain person with freaky reflexes can deflect-counter a shove-light attack with a 12frame guardswitch class as much as you want, but when you start thinking about how close that guy is to the gross average of human reaction speeds, and how fast the average player can react with a 20frame guardswitch class -- then it doesn't necessarily take a brain surgeon to figure out that when you pick out random people from the game's demographics and start betting on whether they can react to shove-lights or not, it'd be wise to bet your money on "they can't". Hence, the "showing someone dodging bullets" analogy.

The only reason people tend to tolerate shove spamming, unlike how they loathe and despise the Warden vortex SBamming, is that the rewards the Lawbs reap from that 50/50 is potentially much lower. The average incoming damage of failing to react to the shove, is a lot more tolerable than the vortex.

So we've switched from the actual fighting definition of a 50/50 that's used universally for fighting games to "it's a 50 50 because majority of players are bad?"
I don't agree. The only reason why I can even some what count it as a 50/50 on consoles is because consoles literally get less time to react due to frames being halved.

Not everything should be balanced around low tier players.

[Knight_Raime]

"Universally" defined in which universe? Yours? Because a "true 50/50" in the most strict meaning of the term is something that's very rare in the first place, even in other fighting games. Even Tekken's notorious "Wind God Fist" - "Hell Sweep" 50/50 which have frustrated gamers for more than 10 years throughout the series doesn't qualify as a "real" 50/50 -- nor does the Warden vortex in FH, for that matter, since it is possible to just give up trying to counter it and back-roll away, avoiding the situation altogether.




Except the "low tiered players" make up what, 90% of the gamer demographics? -- as opposed to... how many players are there that can deflect/parry shove-light on reaction again? Can you, yourself do it?

Ironic, isn't it.

According to you, the Lawb "50/50" isn't "universal", so it's not a "real" 50/50 -- and yet, "universally" players have trouble countering it.

Nah. What a majority of people agree on. Which is "a player having to guess between 2 different actions. If the player can do anything to trump both moves without having to guess it's not a 50/50."
I didn't even say vortex on warden was a 50/50. I don't believe this game has any since rolling away trumps everything.

It's accurate to say there are more average skilled players than top tier competitive players. But those numbers don't mean anything in a majority of cases when it comes to balance. If you actually sat in on some game design you'd know why. If an average skilled player could deal with everything with relitive ease than the skill gap would be small. which means everyone would hit peak skill quickly. and thus the game would die out since there wouldn't be anyway to improve.

I'm not saying that top tier players should be the end all be all balance factor. I'm not saying "well because tourney players can handle it it's balanced." I'm saying that you always need to balance from the top down because this gives a base line of play that appeals to all players whilst still giving something for everyone to strive for or get better at. For honor's staying value is waverying specifically because the time it takes to get decent enough at the game to handle a majority of situations doesn't require a lot of investment or skill.

The devs didn't think people would catch on this quickly. And the mechanics at the start clearly show that they weren't initially shooting for an actual tourney competitive scene. Now they are scrambling to make balance changes and add in things that aid the competitive mentality specifically because people are desiring a higher skill ceiling. As for me I can react to it most of the time. But due to my internet for honor will hiccup in extended play sessions and makes things harder to see happening.

To be clear. I'm saying law's isn't a 50/50 because for honor doesn't have any. and that is because rolling out trumps any guessing you have to do. The fundimental part of a 50/50 is that it forces a player to guess and be punished if doing it wrong. if we exclude reaction times and console players being semi shafted due to the lower frames it's still not a 50/50 just because double roll exists. I'd be willing to bet a whole stawpenny that if console was able to be 60 fps and we waited another week or so people would get the hang of law's "50/50" and the people who struggle against it would drastically decrease.

[Knight_Raime]

Hey, whatever makes you sleep better.

Incredibly dismissive. So I guess this is going no further i'll wrap it up then and leave it at that.

1) it's a fundemental aspect of game design when going for anything pvp related to try and have a high skill ceiling if you're trying to foster a competitive nature. Developers manage to do this by looking into high skilled players specifically to see what they can/can't do and what they abuse. What they do from there in order to make the game graspable in the lower tier but still have much room to improve as a player when going up in skill entirely depends on the game. If you wanted to debate with me on what's better for for honor a competitive environment or a casual one that's fine. But the dev's are clearly making choices to support and foster the competitive crowd now. Which means logically they would be paying close attention to the top tier people and balancing from up to down.

2) I still stand by my personal belief that 50/50's don't exist in for honor period because of double roll. That's me though. The dev's clearly feel the game has some. So my view is going to typically oppose most when it comes to this subject. I both acknowledge and accept that.

3) 50/50's deffinition will very depending on the game it's in. But the basic concept of a 50/50 as I understand it involves one player doing an action that forces the other player to guess which 1 of 2 things is going to happen. The key word being guess. So If I can reliably react i'm not guessing. If I can reliably do an action that trumps both options i'm also not guessing. This is what I believe are the core concepts of a 50/50. Though the term guess and react can be flexible making debates like these happen. If you see 50/50 as something else for this game hey. that's fine. But we already established that 1) I flat out don't believe for honor has a 50/50. and 2) I view the term 50/50 at a very basic very black and white level. I don't like the idea of tweaking the definition of it or other terms on a game level. Which I acknowledge and accept as my hang up.

Hopefully I made myself clearer and you actually understood me. The debate was nice at first. have a good day.