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  1. #1

    Defense meta: Problems and potential solutions

    So defense is strong, much stronger than offense currently.
    Imho defense should be strong, but a good offense should always be stronger and basically a good offense is stronger than a mediocre defense at this point.
    But a good defense that doesn't guess if an opponent goes for a feint, but relies on parrying lights and just blocks the rest can't be really outplayed by any offense.

    I agree that defense should be strong, but a strong defense shouldn't be easy.
    The defenders advantage is the option of doing counter attacks, when reacting correctly.
    The overall issue is that defending itself is quite easy and allows you to defend until you are sure you can counter attack successfully.
    In my opinion the counter potential should be reduced slightly (mostly by removing GB after a heavy attack parry) and also increase the reward for taking the initiative (mostly by buffing heavy attacks).


    Free and easy defense

    In my opinion two issues making defense too easy:

    1. Blocking 100% safe, chip damage is not worth mentioning.
    2. Invincibility frames on dodges.

    Problem:
    To 1) Blocking should be the worst option for defense. It should either decrease your stamina or do some more significant chip damage.
    To 2) Invincibility frames on dodges are a very easy to use mechanic. You either dodge away from the attack or deflect, otherwise you should get hit.

    Stamina costs on block doesn't look like a enjoyable solution in combination with chip damage, so it's either or.
    With blocking costing stamina getting stamina-locked could become a serious problem.

    I would prefer to give players more incentive for heavy attacks as in my opinion heavy attacks need to be more of a threat.
    Currently the primary use of heavies in higher tier play is to bait parries to get a GB.
    I personally rarely commit them and when I do it's mostly to train my opponent to go for parries so I might get a GB on him later on.
    A lot of players do the same and it's countered by not attempting to parry any heavies.
    This basically takes heavy attacks out of the game, except as a follow up of a GB or a parry.

    Solution:
    Damage of heavy attacks that get blocked is halved only, but not completely blocked.
    Also adds recovery frames like being hit from a light attack.
    Remove invincibility frames for dodges.

    Expected result:
    More mind games between committed heavy attacks or feints.

    Basically safe when out of stamina:

    Another issue is how safe the out of stam state is in a lot of match ups.
    The out of stam state itself isn't that much of a threat, except your enemy has unblockables, which can force you to react by either dodging or parrying and you aren't able to dodge backwards, because you got cornered.

    Problem:
    Stamina only regulating how long you can "spam" attacks is an inferior usage of a stamina mechanics that doesn't punish players for poor stamina management.

    The out of stam state shouldn't be a dead sentence, because you are not able to defend anymore.
    But it should be something you should be afraid of getting into, because there is a high chance of taking damage.
    Currently the goal of the out of stamina state is to bait a parry or get a GB which both will result in a knockdown.
    In my opinion this needs more options and this basically through making defense in an out of stamina state more difficult than it is currently.

    I do not understand why there are certain classes that have a lower guard changing speed.
    Those classes do not get anything to compensate for it, except Shoguki with his default hyper armor.
    But the slow guard change speed could be used for the out of stamina state.

    Solution:
    Default guard switching speed across all classes.
    Out of stamina will make you switch your guard slower.
    Dodge speed decreased so players can't easily pull out of the fight when they messed up.

    Huge counter potential because of parry into GB:

    So defense itself is quite easy, but why is it so rewarding?
    Parry.

    Parries result in heavy damage from all classes with almost no exception.
    I don't think that this the core of the problem as a successful parry should result in some good damage, but in some cases it's over the top.
    The standard case for orientation of how parrying should work is:
    Parry a heavy attack = free light attack, if you are in range
    Parry a light attack = free heavy attack

    Problem:
    Free GB after a parry.
    If you are standing close to a wall a Shoguki will throw you into it, do a good amount of damage and heal himself.
    A PK will take almost 3 bars of your health, by doing a double stab into throw into heavy-light lunge attack.
    In some cases a GB can result in immediate death.

    Solution:
    Remove free GB after heavy attack got parried to make defensive parry play somewhat less attractive.


    Overall impact on gameplay:
    Overall heavy attacks are a way more interesting option to use.
    This should result in overall shorter and more intense fights, which also include more mind-games to when a heavy attack is committed or not.
    Parrying is not an overall solution as it is less incentive and also more risky due to the commited heavy / feint mindgame.
    Stamina management has become more important as it is easier to open up an opponent that is out of stamina.
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  2. #2
    People don't seem to understand why defense is so strong. Parries are totally fine since there is feints and if you try to parry a feint you can be punished for that etc.

    The problem starts if people only block and you have no way of opening them. Imagine a warden vortexing the **** out of your kensei, you have no way of punishing his vortex aside from a parryable dodging attack that can be baited by feinting the bash and god help you if the bash drains all your stamina. And no, you can't bait parries by feinting since the warden will just choose to block instead.
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  3. #3
    Specialkha's Avatar Banned
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    You need to address parry as well if you want to fix the def meta. Make the GB after a parry counterable, since the GB won't be guaranteed after a parry ppl, would go for a heavy, make that heavy parriable as well. That would means that hero that relies on parry (mainly LB) truly shines.
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  4. #4
    Originally Posted by Maarchiali Go to original post
    People don't seem to understand why defense is so strong. Parries are totally fine since there is feints and if you try to parry a feint you can be punished for that etc.

    The problem starts if people only block and you have no way of opening them. Imagine a warden vortexing the **** out of your kensei, you have no way of punishing his vortex aside from a parryable dodging attack that can be baited by feinting the bash and god help you if the bash drains all your stamina. And no, you can't bait parries by feinting since the warden will just choose to block instead.
    That's one of the issues I was talking about. Just going to block and don't risk getting baited by parrying only lights.
    Heavies that do significant dmg even when blocked will change that.
    Only going for safe attacks like a vortex warden is another story tbh...
    Imho no attack should be safe, because "unsafe" attacks (warden top light included) are less appealing because of that.

    Originally Posted by Specialkha Go to original post
    You need to address parry as well if you want to fix the def meta. Make the GB after a parry counterable, since the GB won't be guaranteed after a parry ppl, would go for a heavy, make that heavy parriable as well. That would means that hero that relies on parry (mainly LB) truly shines.
    Reward for parries seems off in my opinion. Every parry except when you are out of range will result in a guaranteed heavy attack.
    It should be:
    parrying a heavy = free light attack
    parrying a light attack = free heavy attack.

    I don't think these changes would make the LB shine, it would just make his options off a parry more unique and rewarding compared to other classes.
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  5. #5
    Specialkha's Avatar Banned
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    If you do not nerf parry into the ground, at top level, the def meta will stay as a top player is able to parry even light attack. As long as damage is guaranteed after a parry, the def meta will stay.
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  6. #6
    I think a parry should always result in dmg, except when you are out of range after you parried a heavy attack.
    It shouldn't just be that rewarding that it gives you a GB after you parried a heavy attack.
    It's a risky move if you get baited.

    On the same hand buffing heavy attacks to do dmg through block will make up for some very interesting faint mind games.
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