Variety declining, "pro"-playstyles bleeding through | Forums

[Nekhros79]

The focus of the Dev team should be to promote the diversity of fights and mind game,
and your focus as community manager should be to give more clarity about the current work of Devs.

Concerning the things that need the be changed :
Someone shoudn't be able to stay always on defensive, to do dodge after dodge or to spam unblockable attacks or to run throught the map for 2mn...
- PK lights should be adressed in priority, you're not helping yourself when the patch contains things nobody asked for and this point isn't in it
- All unblockable attacks should have a cooldown, to avoid spamming
- Dodge should cost stamina
- the idea of a block meter is better, i think, than the cost of stamina for block and Parry :
-- blocking attacks depletes block meter
-- block meter starts replenshing 3 seconds after last block
-- when block meter is fully depleted = blocking a heavy attack will crush through your guard (= "Guard Crush") and you will be staggered
-- when block meter is fully depleted = light attacks can still be blocked, but it will cost stamina
-- when block meter is fully depleted + stamina exhausted = blocking a light attack will crush through your guard (= "Guard Crush") and you will be staggered
-- when staggered = you cannot CGB, you cannot block, you cannot parry
-- when staggered = will be vulnerable for approximately 1 heavy attack to land
-- Maybe that could be an opportunity for you to get rid of revenge stats and implement blocking meter stats
- All heroes should be able to feint
- I'm not sure about the asked "less rewarding parry" : having only a light attack after it, the risk wouldn't be worth it.
A parry of a light attack should give a light attack, and a parry of a Heavy attack should lead to a garanteed GB, with maybe a chance for the opponent to parry it.

[CandleInTheDark]

In terms of stamina on dodge,I saw a very good point raised in that it would impact on the assassins, especially the berserker who uses dodge as a soft cancel and the orochi, so if dodge is going to cost stamina, I think the berserker needs to be immune from that when it is a soft cancel (speaking as a peacekeeper main not a berserker) since that is part of how they are supposed to open people up, not sure how it affects the orochi, I haven't played them, in terms of the peacekeeper and anyone else with dash attacks, would it be reasonable to suggest that ok if all dodges are going to cost stamina, dodges that lead to an attack cost no extra stamina as that is part of the same movement?

I'll be straight up in that I am a peacekeeper main so there is some interest in how it would affect the playstyle especially since it is something that would push towards light spam since it is going to cost less stamina than dodging about to get another angle. Myself I will play her whatever happens and adjust my own style to it, just throwing the idea out there.

[SJW_Kriegor]

Attacks don't come fast enough. PK has the fastest lights and good players still have no problem parrying her. Thus nobody decent do any form of combo. All attacks need to come out faster, attacks that are part of a combo need to come out much faster. Also timing to cgb needs to be much stricter.

[Epoqx]

Attacks don't come fast enough. PK has the fastest lights and good players still have no problem parrying her. Thus nobody decent do any form of combo. All attacks need to come out faster, attacks that are part of a combo need to come out much faster. Also timing to cgb needs to be much stricter.

Probably on PC, but not on consoles.

[CandleInTheDark]

I actually have a solution to that as well. My initial idea as that stamina cost first begins very low, and basically dodge will have an "internal cooltime" so every time it is used within that succession, the stamina cost increases. That means assassins will be able to use multi-dodge shenanigans in short bursts, but if they resort to too much movement to be slippery just ALL the time, then the stamina burden will mount.

This actually works as a solution to classes that have infini-lightspams as well. Initially start out with base stamina cost, and then increases in proportion to times repeated. It's in many similar skills in other games that involve quick-repeated skillsets so people do not abuse it.

I think that could very well work,I would think that the stamina needs to be weighted differently towards specific characters like the berserker (maybe half or three quarter in his case just with the dodge or specifically with dodge cancel) somewhat like the conqueror exclusively having superior block on heavies since it fits with the harrasser description he is given outside of that being his way to open people up. I have no issues with it in my own case since counter attack, being the peacekeeper's stock in trade, needs to be more measured in any case. It honestly is the best case I have seen for stamina that doesn't punish attacking as much as it punishes defence which has been the case in most suggestions I have seen.

[Aarpian]

Thank you all for your feedback on this topic. Our team is aware that there is a discrepancy between defensive and attack playstyles, and we realize that the current 'turtle meta' is having a big influence on gameplay, so we're evaluating different routes we can take to change things up.
What kinds of changes do you think could be made to address the current meta and shift it so that playing defensively isn't as low-risk-high-reward?

Chip damage and gutting parries is essential. So long as you make damage accessible to a reactive playstyle (rather than proactive or predictive) you will force players to stare at each other - one to get the reactive damage and the other to avoid it.

Of course, nobody will parry unless it conveys some benefits over blocking though, which it still would (drain enemy stamina to cripple their offense which is gated by stamina, avoid chip damage).
Light attacks should no longer stagger when blocked either, to encourage combo use.
Lower feint stamina costs
Nerf backdash

Adding stamina costs to defensive actions is a dangerous move as even minor tweaks will have a large impact on how much pressure an offense player can put on, as once he's out of stamina the opponent will also be low on stamina and unable to launch a serious counter-attack of his own.

[Oakleaf__Ranger]

Yah I can spot them too except when I do its because I see them mopping the floor against the majority of the enemy team like me. The people who primarily play duels/brawls have the best mechanics of the game compared to the other 2. The element of surprise is almost non existent thanks to the mini map that I'm rarely caught by surprise by another player. If by chaos you mean trying cheesy tricks then understand they occur in duels/brawl as well just to a lesser extent. The reason though is because at a certain point everyone you face is already aware of these and not only don't fall for them but can and will punish you for attempting them. Counter guard break is also second nature to us (at least most of us) unlike those who play dominion who predominately aren't. Gear stats make beating those with lesser skill even easier since it essentially means we can end fights quicker and keep moving on.

[Alchemist..]

Thank you all for your feedback on this topic. Our team is aware that there is a discrepancy between defensive and attack playstyles, and we realize that the current 'turtle meta' is having a big influence on gameplay, so we're evaluating different routes we can take to change things up.
What kinds of changes do you think could be made to address the current meta and shift it so that playing defensively isn't as low-risk-high-reward?

All numbers are examples so do not take them literally. What we need?

Cheap dmg for blocking

Light 1dmg
Heavy 2dmg

Stamina cost for dodging, Bigger for assassins than dodge lights and that's why they generally have better dodge, faster and bigger range.

For making damage we load parry meter and deflect for assassins, the deflect meter is only charged for blocked light attaki for example

For making 60 dmg the meter is full and we get 2 parry a attempts

For making 10 dmg 2 deflect attempts

In this way the players would be more open to attack and fighting would be more tactical and interesting and feints would be used more often. Also note that not every parry means that we will do damage so the one who charged the meter would not be 100% winner.

Of course, this is just the base idea of the system, rules can be different for all classes, for example, defense in full block stance should do 2x dmg by blocking because it does not need any reflexes? assassins have deflects so maybe the rest of them will get party attempts bonuses for full landed chains, or for making x dmg without succesfull block at that time by the opponent? Mabye successfully dodged bash leg sweep etc. should be rewarded as a stamina bonus (no stamina cost for dodge)?


This way the turtling is useless and even dangerous in the long term, players are rewarded for the offensive and the fighting is more interesting and requires planning

[robertmarkbower]

My suggestions are...


1. stamina cost to dodge


2. increased block damage (or 'chip damage' as some call it)
-- blocking light damage will receive 30% of base light attack damage
-- blocking heavy damage will receive 30% of base heavy attack damage


3-1. implement "block meter" in a similar fashion to the stamina meter
-- blocking attacks depletes block meter
-- block meter starts replenshing 3 seconds after last block
-- when block meter is fully depleted = blocking a heavy attack will crush through your guard (= "Guard Crush") and you will be staggered
-- when block meter is fully depleted = light attacks can still be blocked, but it will cost stamina
-- when block meter is fully depleted + stamina exhausted = blocking a light attack will crush through your guard (= "Guard Crush") and you will be staggered
-- when staggered = you cannot CGB, you cannot block, you cannot parry
-- when staggered = will be vulnerable for approximately 1 heavy attack to land


3-2. if adding in a separate 'block meter' system/mechanic is not an option, then make blocks cost stamina
-- blocking attacks will cost 50~75% stamina of incoming attack blocked (if someone uses 20 stamina attack, blocking it will cost 10~15)
-- if stamina is exhausted, block damage is doubled


4. changes to parry
-- parrying an attack will restore 75% of your blockmeter(3-1) / 75% of your stamina(3-2)
-- opponents will recover fast enough so no heavy attack is guaranteed in any situation
-- light attacks are still guaranteed -- first light attack within 3 seconds of a successful parry will daze
-- for 5 seconds after being parried, opponent will suffer 60% higher damage to blockmeter(3-1)/stamina(3-2) when blocking
-- GBs are still guaranteed after a successful parry

5. changes to GB
-- no heavy attack is guaranteed in any GB
-- new functions of light attack, heavy attack, directional input assigned
-- GB+light attack = special (...and cool...) attack moves of mild damage (higher than light attacks, lower than top heavy attack)
-- GB+heavy attack = knockdown move. Will inflict mild stamina damage and knock opponent down. But no heavy attacks guaranteed.
-- GB+directional input = directional push/pull action, as we have currently
-- A GB+light will be countered by light attack button, GB+heavy will be countered by heavy button, GB+direction will be countered by same direction input




The base idea is to:

(1) get rid of guaranteed damage coming from defensive actions
(2) implement a resource(stamina) cost to defensive actions
(3) and set a higher penalty for just being on the defensive.

Some people may think this will result in just an attack-spam slug fest, but it won't. Everyone knows what they were like when they first started FH, how a mindless attack spamming only gets you bloodied by opponent's stopping hits, as well as exhausted. The stamina cost of attacking is still pretty high in FH and that part is not touched.

What I envision is a fight happening is where people can more freely attempt bold attacks without having to fear every single attempt inevitably leading to big loss in HP due to being parried and/or GBd => guaranteed heavy attack. Each attack you force the enemy to block passively will damage him more than before, not penalizingly high, but enough to start becoming an issue.

Forcing a block upon the opponent will mean something, as it will put him at risk of either his guard getting "crushed" and being staggered (suggestion 3-1), or alternately, his stamina being depleted real fast and falling into exhaustion(suggestion 3-2), where he will continuously be depleted of stamina and unable to escape exhaustion (blocking = stamina cost), and receive double block damage which means even with a successful block you receive 60% of incoming damage. This is essentially a representation of being "overwhelmed by the opponent's powerful offense". If this happens your only chance of escape will be to succeed in a parry to turn the tables around to pop out of exhaustion state, gain back the initiative.

As per the suggestion, in the end none of your defensive moves will reward you with damage. Only minor damage with certain utilities are available even if you succeed in a parry, and basically, any real damage will come as a result of aggressive attack actions, swinging and hitting the enemy, or battering on his guard/shield to smash through his defenses -- not as a reward of a defensive action. A successful defensive action will provide you with the ideal opportunity to turn the tables around and let you push in the offensive -- not give you freebie damage by itself alone.

You are being pushed back and battered by the enemy, your blockmeter or stamina is getting low, the 'chip damage' is starting to mount. You need to escape, but should you risk losing even more stamina by dodging out? Or should you try a parry?


When you succeed in a parry you are also given a choice.

(1) Land an immediate, guaranteed light damage and daze the opponent for further damaging combo possibilities.
(2) Use a heavy attack, which is not guaranteed to hit, but possibly will be blocked. The opponent receives 60% higher block meter or stamina, which means it is a risky move but can yield a potentially very high reward by overwhelming the enemy into exhaustion.
(3) or, as a 3rd option, use a GB, which is guaranteed.


But even if you use GB, this also will not give you any guaranteed damage, but put you into a state of a mindgame which the opponent has a chance to counter and escape from. GBs will now be changed to be more like "grapple" moves in other fighting games, so you are given a choice of:

(1) mild/medium damage attack moves = yields immediate damage, but no further advantages
(2) knockdown move = doesn't guarantee any damage except lights, but its utility will shine in team environments as a disabler move.
(3) directional input = same as we have.


So using a GB after a parry will not be an automatic decision, but rather one of the three choices given to you which you may choose upon the situation/tactics, rather than just automatically do it because it simply gives you a freebie heavy attack damage. But beware -- if you go into a GB, like other fighting games, the opponent is given a chance to break away from it by countering your light move with his light, heavy knockdown with his heavy, and position change with his own directional input.


Basically something like this is what I'd like to see in FH.

First of all, this is an excellent post and has some great ideas, you should defenitely create your own thread for this.
Second of all, I have some revenge rework ideas that you can put into that post if you are willing to create it and ofcourse agree with my ideas.I've already made a post with these ideas, and Jurrasic did reply, but again it would be nice if more people spread the message.

1.If only 1 player is locked onto you and hits you, revenge will not be gainable AT ALL
2.If 2 players locked on to you and both hit you atleast 2 times you revenge meter should start rising 15% per hit, and the revenge gain should quicken as more players are locked onto you and hit you (3 players = 25% gain, 4 players = 34%)
3.When activated revenge mode, your heavy attacks should be 50% faster and deal 33% more damage, while light attacks do %20 more damage and are only 10% faster (to prevent Assasin spam)
4.Charging attacks (Conqueror's and Warden's bash, Warlord's headbutt, etc.) should knock multiple people over in a small radius if 3 or more players are onto you
5.Revenge should last according to the number of players on you (2 players = 8 seconds, 3 players = 13, 4 players = 17)
6.Gear should not affect revenge (or any stats in general in my option, and be purely cosmetic, like Rainbow Six Siege or Team Fortress 2)
7.Attacks in revenge mode should be blockable (only if 3 or more players are currently on you), and players in revenge mode cannot be guardbroken (2 or more)
8.Revenge should not be gainable by your own attacks

[UbiNoty]

Thanks all for the really great suggestions! We do realize there is a disparity between attack vs defensive playstyles and you all have given us a bunch of cool ideas for how to approach the current turtle meta problem.
Appreciate it guys!