Variety declining, "pro"-playstyles bleeding through | Forums

[Epoqx]

So you guys are saying that the good duelers/brawlers are gonna be ****tier than Dominion players in 4v4 mods ?

[UbiNoty]

Thank you all for your feedback on this topic. Our team is aware that there is a discrepancy between defensive and attack playstyles, and we realize that the current 'turtle meta' is having a big influence on gameplay, so we're evaluating different routes we can take to change things up.
What kinds of changes do you think could be made to address the current meta and shift it so that playing defensively isn't as low-risk-high-reward?

[Epoqx]

Thank you all for your feedback on this topic. Our team is aware that there is a discrepancy between defensive and attack playstyles, and we realize that the current 'turtle meta' is having a big influence on gameplay, so we're evaluating different routes we can take to change things up.
What kinds of changes do you think could be made to address the current meta and shift it so that playing defensively isn't as low-risk-high-reward?

- More damage through block
- Less rewarding parry ( no more parry into GB/Heavy for example, only light )
- Stamina cost for each defensive action : Block/Parry/Dodge (Don't know why this wasn't already in the game, + In any real life fighting sports, blocking, parrying, dodging USES stamina)
- Fixing the same change guard speed to each character

Listing few of the tons of ideas that came out on forums since a long while.


You guys at ubisoft already have all the necessary ideas from community... But you don't use them. What's the point of discussing about it even more ?
Few examples from last patch :

- Kensei's main problem was finding a way to open a turtle. You buffed his ending moves. Kensei's main problem is still the opening.
- PK's main problem was the ZA and fast/high damage spammable lights. You nerfed ZA and dash attacks. PK's main problem is still the spammable lights.
- Warden's main problem was the spammable shoulder dash 50/50/50(/50). You did nothing. Warden's main problem is still the spammable shoulder dash 50/50/50(/50).
- Oh yeah connection issues. nvm.
- And much more. Yeah some nerfs where a pleasure to receive (WL's headbutt, PK's ZA...), but most of the important fixes, that the community talked about in a lot of threads, giving a lot of ideas, didn't saw the light.


- No test servers on the two first release months.
- Bad communication on the two first release months.
- One update/month on the two first release months.


I know it is your job to be active on forum, and to make us believe that our opinion count. Although what is the point for us, the community of players, to talk about all of this when we get no real results after exactly 2 months of expectation ? A shame that a game like that isn't taken seriously by Ubisoft highest authorities.

[KnifeInUrNeck]

Yeah, during beta when I saw the block damage stat, I thought it'd have a much larger impact on gameplay. it still could really but if you do increase that, then you HAVE to make dodging cost stamina(which it should anyway). I think a lot of the issue comes from unbalanced skill sets as well. Some characters have no true openers and others have multiple. Feinting should have a lower stamina cost since it would play a larger role in fights if block damage is increased. People would be less inclined to take those blocked shots and it'd be a more effective tool for the aggressor.

[bmason1000]

Thank you all for your feedback on this topic. Our team is aware that there is a discrepancy between defensive and attack playstyles, and we realize that the current 'turtle meta' is having a big influence on gameplay, so we're evaluating different routes we can take to change things up.
What kinds of changes do you think could be made to address the current meta and shift it so that playing defensively isn't as low-risk-high-reward?

Increased chip damage for sure. A lot of people really want dodge to have a stamina cost but I personally think that would destroy the assassin classes. PK will probably be fine but berserker and orochi rely on it extensively for offense. Being more aggresive characters, their stamina drain is pretty heavy already. Just my two cents.

[SAVAGE_CABBAGE1]

If you look at from my angle closely, you'll also notice that this "defensive meta" is also very closely related to the class-balance problem.

The current "OP-4" (Warden, Conq, Warlord, PK), despite being different classes with different skills, actually all share a common trait.


1. Commonly despised and loathed by many, the Warden's "vortex" set of moves are comprised of moves that are quite difficult to counter due to fast activation, and it forces a 50/50 guessing game which is currently the single most efficient method of bypassing the "defense meta" that relies on passive blocks and parries. The 'vortex' is a rare case in FH where the variant attacks are usually too fast to react and counter for even people with good reflexes, and therefore the reliability of the 'passive defense' is greatly lowered than usual, as the defender cannot truly 'react,' but only 'guess.' This moveset also offers some 'guaranteed damage' and is relatively safe even when countered, with true 'punishment' not very likely to happen.

2. Warlord relies on an unblockable, spammable headbutt that is also quick to activate and difficult to counter for most people -- which, with a successful hit also has a guaranteed hit. Add to this the shield-based defense and revenge system, and what you get is a class that is very resilient, very quick to fire up revenge, and then spams a quick unblockable that KNOCKS DOWN while revenge is activated, thus leading to MORE GUARANTEED DAMAGE.

3. Conqs work similarly as Warlords, but instead relies on shield bashes that has a very small window of punishment. Basic combat methodology is also similar to Warlord, and also boasts a UNBLOCKABLE KNOCKDOWN that leads to MORE GUARANTEED DAMAGE on hit.

4. PKs are light on their feet and have an absolutely superior dodge, best in both distance covered and speed of travel. This allows her to engage/disengage at will, and when coupled with the fact that the radar-stealth also lets her start the fight the way she wants, this means the PK simply dictates the fight in that she is free to fight battles under her own terms, and simply refuse a fight when she doesn't feel comfortable with it. So any fight that is against a PK usually means the PK player is confident with the situation, thus gaining the initiative. The speed of her light attacks are one of the few attacks in the game that is actually quite challenging to one's reflexes and you may be overwhelmed by sheer amount of incoming attacks -- especially when you are forced to split your concentration between matching the guard direction and looking out for incoming GBs that lead to ton of bleed damage. The PK's a rare case of not relying on guaranteed damage, but can simply overwhelm the opponent's defenses with superior attack specs.


5. The Orochi was considered one of the "OP-4" in the opening phases of the game, but since then has come down a tier and is now cosidered middle~ upper middle tier. The Orochi is basically a middle point between the Warden and the PK, or can be viewed as a neutered down version of the Warden without the 'vortex'. Fast attacks, superior dodge motion, but when it comes to attacking, it doesn't have the above 'common traits' -- hence it fell down to middle tier.

6. The recent rise of the Shugoki -- an alternate form of spamming a 'relatively safe' attack that can bypass the "defense meta" totally -- the Oni Charge. A superior charging attack that gains priority over almost all other moves due to the superarmor(uninterruptable state), easy to spam, weirdly difficult to evade due to him being so pot-bellied, that knocks the other guy down AND THEN ALSO OFFERS A GUARANTEED ATTACK.


The two traits of OP classes, thus, can be categorized as:

(1) easy, quick, relatively safe-to-use = spammable attacks or method of attack that bypasses the 'defense meta'
(2) a repeatedly 'guaranteed damage' component/element that is attached to (1)


Basically, too many situations that reward the player in the form of 'guaranteed damage' is about half of what makes current OP classes 'OP'.

The shugoki can be lumped in there with with charge of the oni, as that leads to even higher damage than most other classes and is a 50/50 as well.

[Delectable_Sin]

Thank you all for your feedback on this topic. Our team is aware that there is a discrepancy between defensive and attack playstyles, and we realize that the current 'turtle meta' is having a big influence on gameplay, so we're evaluating different routes we can take to change things up.
What kinds of changes do you think could be made to address the current meta and shift it so that playing defensively isn't as low-risk-high-reward?

Give all characters a "stun" attack that will take away the attack indicators for those effected for a short time. Or possibly just get rid of attack indicators altogether.

Give all characters an unblockable attack that can be cancelled.

Give all characters the same light attack speed as the PK.

Increase the attack speed of all heavy attacks for all characters by 25%.

[Dude_of_Valor]

I have found people not to be too defensive on Xbox. Has anyone else seen this? I primarily play 1v1 and occasionally Brawl.

I also think that if stamina cost/chip damage is increased from blocking, then it should be tweaked gently and over time. I also think that the classes that are used dictates how much chip damage/stamina they loose depending on the class they are fighting.

A lawbringer should deal more chip damage/stamina cost when blocked by a peacekeeper for example.

You could also take it a step further and increase the amount of chip damage/stamina cost based on the distance when blocking.

Block an attack at the furthest point causes negligible chip damage/stamina cost but blocking one up close and personally causing more.

As for variety of classes I think this comes down to people wanting to keep a good K/D ratio and win percentage, thus trying out new classes is a little risky.

I am guilty of this, but from what I have tried few classes seem to flow as fluidly as a Warden. That and I just don't like the play style of most of the others (am hoping the new classes will change that!)

[IamheiN]

- More damage through block
- Less rewarding parry ( no more parry into GB/Heavy for example, only light )
- Stamina cost for each defensive action : Block/Parry/Dodge (Don't know why this wasn't already in the game, + In any real life fighting sports, blocking, parrying, dodging USES stamina)
- Fixing the same change guard speed to each character

Listing few of the tons of ideas that came out on forums since a long while.


You guys at ubisoft already have all the necessary ideas from community... But you don't use them. What's the point of discussing about it even more ?
Few examples from last patch :

- Kensei's main problem was finding a way to open a turtle. You buffed his ending moves. Kensei's main problem is still the opening.
- PK's main problem was the ZA and fast/high damage spammable lights. You nerfed ZA and dash attacks. PK's main problem is still the spammable lights.
- Warden's main problem was the spammable shoulder dash 50/50/50(/50). You did nothing. Warden's main problem is still the spammable shoulder dash 50/50/50(/50).
- Oh yeah connection issues. nvm.
- And much more. Yeah some nerfs where a pleasure to receive (WL's headbutt, PK's ZA...), but most of the important fixes, that the community talked about in a lot of threads, giving a lot of ideas, didn't saw the light.


- No test servers on the two first release months.
- Bad communication on the two first release months.
- One update/month on the two first release months.


I know it is your job to be active on forum, and to make us believe that our opinion count. Although what is the point for us, the community of players, to talk about all of this when we get no real results after exactly 2 months of expectation ? A shame that a game like that isn't taken seriously by Ubisoft highest authorities.

This is pretty much what we need in the game for now, then wait to see how it works and do some tiny adjustements, but the stamina cost for blocking and dodging NEEDS to be here.

And a increase of chip damage on blocked attacks, not sure how much it is now but we need atleast 30 to 40% of the damage dealt on block so we can see some ofensive moves.

[Hillbill79]

Stamina cost for blocking and dodging is all well and good... but what if, for example.. you get exhausted.... how will you get your stamina back up if block and dodge cost stamina? It would be impossible unless your opponent backs off and lets you recover. Which they wont.

This is pretty much what we need in the game for now, then wait to see how it works and do some tiny adjustements, but the stamina cost for blocking and dodging NEEDS to be here.

And a increase of chip damage on blocked attacks, not sure how much it is now but we need atleast 30 to 40% of the damage dealt on block so we can see some ofensive moves.