Orochi balance | Forums

[Desu_Vulthala]

I feel like Orochi is not in a to bad spot. The majority of heros doenst have any realy viable tool, you bascily demand to get everything viable.
As an exmaple, the dodgeattack is a tool, you are supposed to use it for specific situations and not spam it. btw. it is a very strong tool, turning a few 50/50 into a 33/33/33 which is ****ing great!
Strom rush is a decently great baiting tool, compared to other heros, it also includes a high damaging whiff punisher. Stormrush cancels into gb, zone toplight or even side heavies are ****ing hard to handle...this is already stronger than the offense of other heros.
As a small bonus, Orochi got a zone which is bascily not blockable on reactions, creating a realy nasty mixup with the toplight...which is just the highest damage light in the game.

Imo, every hero is lacking variation in his movesets, but Orochi got at least a few tools and a strong mixup.

Yeah, making everything viable is the point of this. I mean even if half of this things were viable that be already good, instead of him having two moves only. There is a reason why there only pks in tournaments, or pks that get far in tournaments. Orochi is not even considered to be good anywhere in mid skill play and above. Sure there some people that still play him and do well, but thats because they are just good players. I watched some of their streaming and they straight up admit that he is just bad hero.

Dodge attacks are just bad, they are slow, they are predictable and they are easy to bait. It will only work on people that are just still not that good. Your argument about dodge attacks is only good on paper but thats about it. Let me paint a picture here. Dodge attacks and riptide are never used in tournaments or even in any decent skill level for one reason. They are too risky and you can achieve same result with parry, while also not just letting your opponent parry you. Whats the point for me to use dodge attack or riptide if I can't feint them? All it takes is one feint from your opponent and if you dodge attack or riptide, you are ****ed, thats it, you got parried. Instead you just parry instead, that way if they feint, you can feint your parry too.

Here another example to why dodge attacks are actually not useful anywhere because there is far better thing you can do. If you dodge shoulder bash, shield bash, and so on, you can do that with dodge attack and get that half of bar of dmg or you can dodge into gb and get that bar and a half of dmg. See what I mean? Dodge attacks and riptide are either just plain bad in most of the situations, or just not as good as other options. So there is absolutely no reason to use them.

Storm rush into gb,that is a thing that is very hard to do, and not in a way of needed to git gud hard to do. I already explained why it's kind of bad. The window is first two steps, you already take a step back when you que storm rush, meaning you got to get into someones face, like right there, so close that you about to kiss them, for that to even work. You also know what will happen if people start using it a lot? Same thing thats happening to zone spam now, it does not work anymore. People will see you storm rush in their face, they will roll out of hit you. For this move to even be close to viable the range on it needs to be increased, plus the feint window needs to be bigger, and gb window needs to be even bigger. As I also said above, add to where you can swap direction of the swing in mid run. This will actually make it viable but not broken. Cause once again, even with all that, all you got to do to beat it is stand still and wait to either block, parry, or cgb. It will still be far inferior to wardens shoulder bash, but it will be at least something.

The side attacks are plain bad, they are just used for feints. Side attacks are just so slow that it's a free parry.

Also zone is losing it's appeal. You can still land it but you have to do it with some effort now. You simply can't land just a zone on anyone who is at least half decent. They just hold guard on the right, thats it. Orochi does have two moves and two moves only, and thats if you are actually good with him. If you are not, then he has one move, top light. Also try going against any non assassin class that just blocks and does not parry, you got absolutely nothing. You can't do a single thing to them because now your feints been rendered obsolete as well.

[Desu_Vulthala]

Lets just say this. Pk is with no doubt best assassin over all.

I also just picked up zerker, and I mean not even rep 1, he is prettyyyyy gooodddddd. Not op good, but viable good. He got easy hyper armor, he got amazing dmg, amazing combo ability, he got amazing feints, and soft feints. All of his kit is pretty well used. You wont see lots of jump attacks or top heavy finishers that are not feints but still, most of his stuff got real use.

Orochi is just the worst assassin over all, and just not that good of a hero.

[CandleInTheDark]

Riptide strike, if you get the timing right, is a guaranteed top heavy. Now you can parry to be certain but good luck guardbreaking the characters with longer ranged weapons.I believe stormrush is along the same line though I don't know exactly what moves it is as safe to use that against.

Full disclaimer, I haven't actually played him, just watched videos with a view to, that is what I have picked up from advanced guides though. It does make sense with him being a counterattacker which may be harder in the current meta than it was meant to be.

[Juuzaam]

Lets just say this. Pk is with no doubt best assassin over all.

I would never question this at all.

Time to get back to the dodge attacks. I am playing Valky and Warden, both Heros with a vortex. The regular mix up is between dodge and not to dodge and gb. This is basicly the infamos 50/50 people are talking about. In addition to this we know you can roll out of these.
And here comes the dodge attacks, they counter both, the gb and they dodge. Turning these vortex in to a 33/33/33. In all 3 cases you are back in the vortex, still your chance to survive is higher.
(there are several options where the dodge attack works the same way as a tool, like vs lb shove mix up, raider zones) Every hero with a dodge attack gets in these situations an additional option.
To proove Orochis zone is pretty good. (like pks) it is a heavy attack, means less punishable.

And now the stormrush. U know u can unlock tech it? Making it unparryable. A problem a lot heros in the game is to get an opening, like getting close and force a mixup. The pure Stromrush cancel into a) zone or b) toplight is a realy nasty tool. The double top light is the highest damage 15f in the game, while the basicly unreactable 12f zone is safe (shall i mention the other Hero with this exact Mixup that deals less damage & does not have a safe zone? And ofcourse..pks zone is safe ofcourse...prooving how good she is) in addition to the flicker it is a guessing game, a safe 50/50 mixup.
So stormrush is used to get close safe as an opener, only shugo got an opener like this, you can not parry attack into it...and shugos move is completly broken

The reason Orochis arent winning tournaments is simple, other classes are just broken.

I agree that riptide might need a change, because there are 2 better moves for this.

[CaynAldan]

I would never question this at all.

Time to get back to the dodge attacks. I am playing Valky and Warden, both Heros with a vortex. The regular mix up is between dodge and not to dodge and gb. This is basicly the infamos 50/50 people are talking about. In addition to this we know you can roll out of these.
And here comes the dodge attacks, they counter both, the gb and they dodge. Turning these vortex in to a 33/33/33. In all 3 cases you are back in the vortex, still your chance to survive is higher.
(there are several options where the dodge attack works the same way as a tool, like vs lb shove mix up, raider zones) Every hero with a dodge attack gets in these situations an additional option.
To proove Orochis zone is pretty good. (like pks) it is a heavy attack, means less punishable.

And now the stormrush. U know u can unlock tech it? Making it unparryable. A problem a lot heros in the game is to get an opening, like getting close and force a mixup. The pure Stromrush cancel into a) zone or b) toplight is a realy nasty tool. The double top light is the highest damage 15f in the game, while the basicly unreactable 12f zone is safe (shall i mention the other Hero with this exact Mixup that deals less damage & does not have a safe zone? And ofcourse..pks zone is safe ofcourse...prooving how good she is) in addition to the flicker it is a guessing game, a safe 50/50 mixup.
So stormrush is used to get close safe as an opener, only shugo got an opener like this, you can not parry attack into it...and shugos move is completly broken

The reason Orochis arent winning tournaments is simple, other classes are just broken.

I agree that riptide might need a change, because there are 2 better moves for this.

Perhaps i had misunderstand you, but orochi dodge attack it's a main cause of lost battles. It's very punishable, without mention i'm getting grabbed all the time with no cgb possible.
And i get happy when i found an orochi storm rush at my. Is and easy parry

[Desu_Vulthala]

Riptide strike, if you get the timing right, is a guaranteed top heavy. Now you can parry to be certain but good luck guardbreaking the characters with longer ranged weapons.I believe stormrush is along the same line though I don't know exactly what moves it is as safe to use that against.

Full disclaimer, I haven't actually played him, just watched videos with a view to, that is what I have picked up from advanced guides though. It does make sense with him being a counterattacker which may be harder in the current meta than it was meant to be.

Lets just establish this once and for all. Riptide is trash, and I said many times why. If you time it right, yeah this is not a point. You got to use it fast and if you use it and they feint, you are ****ed. This is why there is no reason to use it when you get the same result, which is much safer, which is parry.

[Desu_Vulthala]

I would never question this at all.

Time to get back to the dodge attacks. I am playing Valky and Warden, both Heros with a vortex. The regular mix up is between dodge and not to dodge and gb. This is basicly the infamos 50/50 people are talking about. In addition to this we know you can roll out of these.
And here comes the dodge attacks, they counter both, the gb and they dodge. Turning these vortex in to a 33/33/33. In all 3 cases you are back in the vortex, still your chance to survive is higher.
(there are several options where the dodge attack works the same way as a tool, like vs lb shove mix up, raider zones) Every hero with a dodge attack gets in these situations an additional option.
To proove Orochis zone is pretty good. (like pks) it is a heavy attack, means less punishable.

And now the stormrush. U know u can unlock tech it? Making it unparryable. A problem a lot heros in the game is to get an opening, like getting close and force a mixup. The pure Stromrush cancel into a) zone or b) toplight is a realy nasty tool. The double top light is the highest damage 15f in the game, while the basicly unreactable 12f zone is safe (shall i mention the other Hero with this exact Mixup that deals less damage & does not have a safe zone? And ofcourse..pks zone is safe ofcourse...prooving how good she is) in addition to the flicker it is a guessing game, a safe 50/50 mixup.
So stormrush is used to get close safe as an opener, only shugo got an opener like this, you can not parry attack into it...and shugos move is completly broken

The reason Orochis arent winning tournaments is simple, other classes are just broken.

I agree that riptide might need a change, because there are 2 better moves for this.

Bro... like... are you for actual real? Because i will be honest, what you are giving is not really false, but you kind of making a perfect scenario there or nitpicking into game design and ways to exploit it, which is basically near cheating just to make is kind of viable. When game should just make it viable by balance.

Lets talk about dodge attacks, again. If you are in a vortex, just answer this. Whats your best bet? Gambling that 50/50 with dodge attack that might get parried, or just simply roll out with no risk and break the vortex? You are not dumb, so I know what your answer will be, of course no risk way, it is no risk way all the way for anyone. So if shoulder charge is just a charge, dodge into gb is best, if charge is a gb or a feint, roll out is best because there is no risk. As it stands dodge attack is not best for anything, absolutely anything.

The zone. Yeah good attack. Now tell me, how often you block right as your warden when you fight orochi? If I guess all the time, which makes that zone useless, I probably be right, because I see everyone do it. For me to get a zone on most people now, I have to start with a feint, then into zone. So to deal one bar of dmg, orochi loses almost all of his stam. So don't get me wrong here bro, zone is good, but it also sucks because he has like only one other option, so it is easy to guard against.

The unlock storm rush is just a straight up exploit, it's not even meant to be used like this and even then, so you can't parry it, ok... Lets say they do not block it the first time, you get that pathetic dmg it does and you got absolutely nothing to follow up with. Also thats assuming you don't simply get hit out of it too. An unlocked storm rush does not give you top light. Also closing distance is not even an issue, in any higher skill play people walk into each others face and trade feints, they literally let you close distance and even if they don't, it;s not hard, you will be able to close distance on anyone any time you want always. Storm rush now is just a fake out tool is needs a rather big buff.

[Juuzaam]

Ok, again. The stormrush is forcing your opponent to not hold his block on the right side the whole time. This is the opening for forcing your opponent into guessing, is it a toplight, or is it flicker zone.
Even without the stormrush tech. (which can be followed by double toplight guaranteed!) it still got this effect.
It usualy takes 20s to see if an orochi is able to force me into this or not. (where i am probably going to loose)
[About the tech/exploit: It is actualy in the game. Every tournament allowed unlock tech, ubi didnt fixed these for almost 2 months. I am not happy about these and would love to see these gone. But atm it is in the game. And before we start screaming for a buff or nerf, we should get rid of these bugs or complete broken mechanics first. Shugos oni, stupid head butt, flicker, broken light and zone from pk...]

Also the reason why the dodgeattack is usefull did not changed, As a Valk i got an unsafe on block(!) dodgeattack, which is also a light, means high punish on parry, especialy vs LB and Valk it is an awesome tool. There are also these situations vs conq, shugo, warlord but nothing important.
It is simple, you just get a 3rd option when you decide to go into the guessing game instead of rolling out.

Ok, to get to the point. Buffing every move from Orochi to get "viable" / spamable would break him completly at the current state of the game. I dont like how simple for honor looks from the outside, because you basicly just 1-3 tools from every hero. But thats the game, the movelists are ****ing small.

[Desu_Vulthala]

Ok, again. The stormrush is forcing your opponent to not hold his block on the right side the whole time. This is the opening for forcing your opponent into guessing, is it a toplight, or is it flicker zone.
Even without the stormrush tech. (which can be followed by double toplight guaranteed!) it still got this effect.
It usualy takes 20s to see if an orochi is able to force me into this or not. (where i am probably going to loose)
[About the tech/exploit: It is actualy in the game. Every tournament allowed unlock tech, ubi didnt fixed these for almost 2 months. I am not happy about these and would love to see these gone. But atm it is in the game. And before we start screaming for a buff or nerf, we should get rid of these bugs or complete broken mechanics first. Shugos oni, stupid head butt, flicker, broken light and zone from pk...]

Also the reason why the dodgeattack is usefull did not changed, As a Valk i got an unsafe on block(!) dodgeattack, which is also a light, means high punish on parry, especialy vs LB and Valk it is an awesome tool. There are also these situations vs conq, shugo, warlord but nothing important.
It is simple, you just get a 3rd option when you decide to go into the guessing game instead of rolling out.

Ok, to get to the point. Buffing every move from Orochi to get "viable" / spamable would break him completly at the current state of the game. I dont like how simple for honor looks from the outside, because you basicly just 1-3 tools from every hero. But thats the game, the movelists are ****ing small.

The thing is that ubi have not fixed lots of things in two months.

I also do not actually want all of his moves being buffed, I be just fine with storm rush.

I get what you are trying to say about how you use storm rush now, and guess what? I use it the same damn way, plus the very hard to do gb cancel on it. Still, this is far from good, and very easy to react, storm rush is not some super fast move. It is slow on que and it is slow on execute.

Also just take a look at other heroes here.

As lb you now got lots of options from parries, and from shoves, you got crazy mixups on shoves that are reactable too but still viable.

As Valk your mixups are some of the best in the game, is it light light into sweep or is it into gb? Is it heavy into shield bash and gb or into sweep? is it light light after sweep into heavy, sweep or gb, or feint. I play valk and it's crazy, but she is not op and can be reacted to.

As warlord you got everything viable, his entire kit, for exception of maybe jump attack which is better to use in chase.

As warden, you all know, everything is viable.

As zerk, nearly everything is viable and got some uses, except maybe jump attacks.

So I am sure you are getting my point. Even if I was calling for a buff on orochi that would make all of his moves viable, how is that bad? We got like at least 4 heroes that already have that.

What I do like to see is one buff, one and only buff and thats on storm rush. As of now it's really bad, like really bad. The range is not too long, the step back makes whole feinting and gb cancel use very hard to use with any effect at all. Just make it so the distance for it is longer, feint window is longer, gb cancel window is longer, and maybe throw in an attack side switch during the running animation.

This may sound nuts but not really, this is still would be worse than shoulder bash and if anything, it be just like any lb or valk mixups and could be reacted to, but by god, would it make orochis mind game beyond using two moves only. The answer is yes it would.

[SAVAGE_CABBAGE1]

Ok bro, how is this doing anything for any post? You say play raider? Ok, everyone knows that raider needs a buff, but how does that changes anything for orochi? Just cause there is even weaker hero, does not mean that slightly stronger but still weak hero does not need a buff. Also please do not assume, I do quite well with orochi, but thats not cause the hero is good or even close to being good. We are not here to measure our ****s and talk about individual skill level though and I could rip into you for assuming generic **** like he wants hero buffed that means he sucks! But i wont, cause thats not what we are doing here.

So raider sucks, yeah, he needs a buff. Although orochi is not even close to top 4, like not even close. I do believe he is in button 5, for me in bottom 3 but this varies with opinion, still not above worst 5th for anyone I bet.

You say he's a bottom 5 character in a roster of 12, meaning he's in between UP and OP. You're pretty much saying he's balanced