Exploits need to be removed before anymore balance patches roll out. | Forums

[MisterGuyMan]

Quite simple in fact. In most game, using exploits is cheating. Same here BUT maybe they can't detect who is using it, or they think it does not hurt the game as much as afk farming or they do not want to ban players since the playerbase is already so thin. Pick your choice.

I come from a fighting game background and exploits are most definitely not generally considered cheating.

TL;DR for anyone joining this thread late:
MisterGuyMan: "I can only win by using exploits. Using exploits is ok because it is not cheating. Fallacy."
Everyone else: "Exploits are bad for the game. You are trash for using them."

Oh look at the fighting game noob act like he knows anything. Go watch any Evo and tell me again that exploits are cheating. Go ahead. LOL

This noob mentality should be embarassing.

[Arekonator]

Let me clarify.I never implied those issues should never be fixed.i just dont agree that doing it by "breaking" something else (in this case actual game mechanic) is way to do it. which leads to the second point.
The thing with low effort isnt about the effort on itself. Its combination of effort needed, risk and reward. It boils down to just cheese. Thats basic videogame design, cheese is bad.
Even if we, just for argument sake, assume it was intended, it still results in a cancerous gameplay and should be removed from game. And because it was never intended to be in the game anyway, there is zero reason for it to stay.
You simply consider those "techs" lesser evil than turtle meta.

[MisterGuyMan]

Let me clarify.I never implied those issues should never be fixed.i just dont agree that doing it by "breaking" something else (in this case actual game mechanic) is way to do it. which leads to the second point.
The thing with low effort isnt about the effort on itself. Its combination of effort needed, risk and reward. It boils down to just cheese. Thats basic videogame design, cheese is bad.
Even if we, just for argument sake, assume it was intended, it still results in a cancerous gameplay and should be removed from game. And because it was never intended to be in the game anyway, there is zero reason for it to stay.
You simply consider those "techs" lesser evil than turtle meta.

Actually I fundamentally disagree with your assumption that 'cheese' is bad. Let's actually identify the term as you use it. You argue that it's bad game design if a good tactic is easy to use. The flip side of that coin is that you believe that good tactics should be harder to perform. The problem with that is you're basically arguing that games should have high learning curves. I've played games like these. In MvC games, I'm one of those people that pour hours into training mode. The end result is that any new or intermediate player won't even know what I'm doing and even less know how to counter it. We're barely even playing the same game.

In general the opposite is true. New players should be able to perform good tactics. I also don't believe FH falls under your criteria either. The inputs are easy. Flicker requires just one extra delayed input and it's so lenient that people do it all the time without noticing. More importantly, the counter is even simpler. Block. It's hard to argue that a cheesy move has to be removed based purely on game design when everyone knows how to counter it and the actual counter is even easier.

Finally cheese as a term means nothing to me. I have no problem if my hard to perform tactic loses to your easy to perform one. I've seen throws, fireballs, traps and lockdown called cheesy. It's a crutch people use when they lose. If you actually define it in a way it can be analyzed, I often find the argument against cheese makes no sense.

[Aidames]

I don't know, man, I'm still not convinced. I really get where you're coming from, but I'm not sure that the statement that 'everyone does it' makes it legit. These tournaments you are talking about, are they officially sanctioned (like, organized/supported/advertised by the gaming studio) or made by player organizations?

I'm really not into fighting games, at all, For Honor is one of my childhood dreams come true though. So, I can be considered a very casual player. I think the standards for people who play these games 24/7 and people who play significantly less, or their only fighting game is For Honor, are different. Not saying higher or lower standards, just different. Using exploits or exploiting a bug just sounds wrong, as the word's meaning in video games was rarely positive - if at all.

As for the EULA thing, we can just agree to disagree I think.

[Netcode_err_404]

Unparriable damage with lock on disengage, seems too much to ignore it.

[MisterGuyMan]

I don't know, man, I'm still not convinced. I really get where you're coming from, but I'm not sure that the statement that 'everyone does it' makes it legit. These tournaments you are talking about, are they officially sanctioned (like, organized/supported/advertised by the gaming studio) or made by player organizations?

Evo is sponsored by Capcom and is the highlight of the Capcom Pro Tour. It's widely considered the world fighting game championship. Nintendo has also sponsored it and SSBM is filled to the brim with exploits. I'd also add that Sirlin is a former pro competitor with a series of "Playing to Win" articles and he explains why players should use exploits in those articles. He
was the lead designer in the HD remaster of Street Fight II. Combos and Kara cancels are official terms now and they were both glitches. I can even recall some Capcom Rep referring to unintended tech when explaining why they nerfed Morrigan in UMvC3. He said they found some really power tech and the community was too slow to realize how good they were and now it's too late.

In my experience, you WANT your players finding this stuff out. It means they care. When you go to shoryuken.com you'll see countless posts of people finding, explaining and discussing new tech. If you find a useful one people be grateful and it might even be named after you as a badge of honor. Half the community will try to make it better. The other half will to find a way to counter it. Ideally, no one cries cheap of cheese as an excuse. It's all progress and you literally see the game evolve over time. Overpowered tactics become counterable then even useless.

I'm really not into fighting games, at all, For Honor is one of my childhood dreams come true though. So, I can be considered a very casual player. I think the standards for people who play these games 24/7 and people who play significantly less, or their only fighting game is For Honor, are different. Not saying higher or lower standards, just different. Using exploits or exploiting a bug just sounds wrong, as the word's meaning in video games was rarely positive - if at all.

As for the EULA thing, we can just agree to disagree I think.

I get what you're saying. FH is a dream come true for me too. And I'll be honest my biggest issue is the defensive meta. I played the first two months being a completely aggressive Orochi and winning a lot. Then the game got close to being "solved" and it became clear offense sucked so I basically unlearned everything to be a defensive Orochi. I'm not even saying I'll complain if Exploits are taken out. I'm just saying people need to stop complaining if other people use it.

Rules have to be clear and enforceable. Flicker can happen if you're not trying to do it. It's hard NOT to do it. If you really analyze what that rule looks like on a technical level it would be something like this:
"You are allowed to press these two buttons close to each other but you cannot press them close enough together between 1/60th and 5/60th of a second window"
And if we determined people did it on purpose... then what? There's no recourse. For all intents and purposes, until it's patched out, the move is part of the game.

Unparriable damage with lock on disengage, seems too much to ignore it.

This might be true but I've seen bigger glitches countered. SF Alpha 2 had unlockable Super Custom Combos and the game still held out in high level play. This also is a lot easier to spot and enforce a rule against since you can't accidentally do this exploit. Wasn't this already patched anyway?

[Netcode_err_404]

Evo is sponsored by Capcom and is the highlight of the Capcom Pro Tour. It's widely considered the world fighting game championship. Nintendo has also sponsored it and SSBM is filled to the brim with exploits. I'd also add that Sirlin is a former pro competitor with a series of "Playing to Win" articles and he explains why players should use exploits in those articles. He
was the lead designer in the HD remaster of Street Fight II. Combos and Kara cancels are official terms now and they were both glitches. I can even recall some Capcom Rep referring to unintended tech when explaining why they nerfed Morrigan in UMvC3. He said they found some really power tech and the community was too slow to realize how good they were and now it's too late.

In my experience, you WANT your players finding this stuff out. It means they care. When you go to shoryuken.com you'll see countless posts of people finding, explaining and discussing new tech. If you find a useful one people be grateful and it might even be named after you as a badge of honor. Half the community will try to make it better. The other half will to find a way to counter it. Ideally, no one cries cheap of cheese as an excuse. It's all progress and you literally see the game evolve over time. Overpowered tactics become counterable then even useless.


I get what you're saying. FH is a dream come true for me too. And I'll be honest my biggest issue is the defensive meta. I played the first two months being a completely aggressive Orochi and winning a lot. Then the game got close to being "solved" and it became clear offense sucked so I basically unlearned everything to be a defensive Orochi. I'm not even saying I'll complain if Exploits are taken out. I'm just saying people need to stop complaining if other people use it.

Rules have to be clear and enforceable. Flicker can happen if you're not trying to do it. It's hard NOT to do it. If you really analyze what that rule looks like on a technical level it would be something like this:
"You are allowed to press these two buttons close to each other but you cannot press them close enough together between 1/60th and 5/60th of a second window"
And if we determined people did it on purpose... then what? There's no recourse. For all intents and purposes, until it's patched out, the move is part of the game.


This might be true but I've seen bigger glitches countered. SF Alpha 2 had unlockable Super Custom Combos and the game still held out in high level play. This also is a lot easier to spot and enforce a rule against since you can't accidentally do this exploit. Wasn't this already patched anyway?

Yeah.. sort of.

Patched in ubisoft way