Guard Break - The real issue with Defensive Meta. (Solved!?) | Forums

[Y_Shrewditch]

I'll jump in, late as it is, but what would happen if blocking an attack costs stamina, possibly based on the damage of the attack, and have that coupled with the amount of "Block Damage" on gear?

[l8knight347]

how about just making all attacks off of parries and gbs blockable so people aren't afraid to attack.

[DJ_Masterson]

I'll jump in, late as it is, but what would happen if blocking an attack costs stamina, possibly based on the damage of the attack, and have that coupled with the amount of "Block Damage" on gear?

Heck, that'd also help, too. But I just want to see blocks stop interrupting combos. That's stupid and absurd. That should only happen with parries.

how about just making all attacks off of parries and gbs blockable so people aren't afraid to attack.

Not sure! Making GB's more useful is definitely important, though. They're too easily countered atm and that's stupid.

[S0Mi_xD]

Thank you for your idea

welcome to the unofficial club of the "Anti-Def-Meta-Gank-Gang" ;P

I must say, i don't like your idea, it is a nice thought but it is not worked out to the end and not the key to all of this.
If the GB is only counterable at a throwing attept, GB would be broken, because GB>Heavy or GB>light spam would be safe dmg and if you don't get anything from this GB would be useless.
Ledges are not the problem of the defensive meta, and GB aswell are not.
Let me Quote some material from me, i posted a while ago...

But currently, if i fight a good player who is capable of blocking every move and parry almost every attack (light or heavy - doesn't play a roll).
The moment this person starts to dispare because i crush him, he starts to "turtle".
And by turleing it isn't meant to play defensive, it mean to really, never attack again until it is safe, like you say on a whiff while someone is constantly dodging.
The problem is, defense is VERY MUCH better than offensive, because there are more tools with nearly no drawback in defense then in offense.

Ok, i will make it easy for you:

Defese options/tool:
1. Block on light:
+ no drawback for the Blocking hero
+ drawbacks for the attacker:
~ Superior block(means attack will be interrupted and chains aswell)
~ while interrupted some chars can be punished
~ attacker takes stamina dmg (don't know how high but looks like same stamina cost of a heavy attack)

2. Block on heavy:
- Blocking hero gets chip dmg (1-6 dmg) for the exact numbers look here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...view?sle=true#
- attacker takes stamina dmg (don't know if it is the same as on light block or more)

3. Parry:
+ Parry doesn't cost stamina
+ Parry on light gives most chars their strongest heavy for free
+ Parry in general gives a free heavy and a free GB(except on long range chars)
+ Parry drains 1/3 of the attackers stamina
Drawback for the Defensive:
-/+ IF he miss the parry he gets parried or hit, but you can still feint the missed parry and block fast enough. (this drawback is very unlikly)

4. Dash and roll
+ You can evade evey attack in this game by dashing or rolling, rolling out of the wardens shoulderbash or LB shovel is a good way.
- if you miss the timeing you get hit (but this does not happen much, because most of the time only assassins use dash/dodge)

5. Now about character specific def
Superior Block:
+ Conque gets free GB after heavy block
+ no chip dmg
here: speacial speacial: Valks, conqus, kenseis dodge do have a sup block
+ Valks reward a bleed heavy
+ conque gets a shildbash
+ kensei gets a light or a GB

Deflect:
- Very risky because of the timing, if you fail you get hit or dodge it (50/50)
- parry is much safer and rewards around the same output
+ looks cool and gives kind of sadisfaction

Full stance guard:
Conqu - i don't see any use except as a his feint
Warlord free light after heavy block.

(maby i forgot something)

Offensive tools etc
1. Light (downsides are the the advantages of defese)
+ fast attack
- cost stamina
- easy interrupted

2. heavy (downsides are the the advantages of defese)
- cost more stamina
- easy parried

3. Unblockables are specific, not every char has some offensive unblockable and

4. specific unblockables like sholderbash shovel (also limited)

5. Feint (except conqu)
+ good bait
+ mindgames

6. Combos/ chains
- most of the time useless if interrupted
-/+ whiffing



I don't want parries to go, but they could atlest be limited abit (maybe cost stamina, and while exhausted a shorter window to parry same like deflect - same princip like attacks while no stamina)
And if Light superior block is gone it wouldn't be that bad, because there are enough other defesive options/tools.

So what can we see here?
The Basic tools which can everybody use:
- Block (light/heavy)
- Parry
- dodge and roll (what i forgot here: roll does cost stamina and can't be attemped when OOS)

- Attack (light/heavy)
- Feint
- Combos/Chains

So let us compare those:
Blocking
- has a good amount of advantages, but not nearly as much disadvantages
- it currently is Superior to 2 main tools from the ffensive tools -> Light attacks and because of this also to Chains

Parry
-This tool is in first line a defensive tool but in second line an offensive tool, because it gives you a counterattack.
- Parries do not have any real disadvantage only advantages
- the only disadvantages can be negated thanks to the second Offensive tool: Feint

Dodging
-this one is balanced, it does not have that much of a advantages or disadvantage

Rolls
- They have a BIG advantages, rolling can safe you from anything BUT it cost much stamina and isn't useable OOS

Attacks and Chains will be easy counter with nearly all defensive tools
also i forgot one tool here: The GB

GB
+ it can open up an enemy and give you good options to dmg your enemy
- it can be countered

so GBs are quite fair as they are.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Currently the best offensive tools are GB and Feint and both are working, so i wouldn't touch both of them.
Rolling and Dodging are working as intendet. As well we don't need to touch them.
So Block, Parry, Attacks and Chains are need a look.

Block, Attacks and Chains are bound to each other:

1. Superior Light block.
Interrupts Light attacks -> that means there are no Chains possible if a Light is interrupted

So do we need to remove Sup light block?
It would be a way, but it would let some player open to Lightspam.
So we need something different. The Answer i also wrote in another thread a month ago (can't find it, so i will rewrite it)
Uninterruptable for Light and Heavies (only uninterruptable through blocks - still interruptable through attacks) ! Not the same Hyperarmor we know from Berserker or Warlord.
We already have a Hero who is using this. Light attacks from the Shugoki can't be interrupted by Blocks! (as far as i know this has nothing to do with his special Armor, it is a passive trait of his attacks in general).
So why not giving Attacks in Chains this passive trait? Not for all of them, But for some of them.
Let's say: (those are only examples)
Orochi: Light > Light > Light
Light (interruptable) > Light (uninterruptable) > Light (interruptable)
Light (uninterruptable) > Light (interruptable) > Light (uninterruptable)

Also some Heavies SHOULD be uninterruptaple in chains aswell. Why? because of classes like Conqueror - to be able to attack heroes with superior blocks with heavies as well.

This would solve the problems using chains, shrink the amounts of lights that are punishable for some heroes (valk, kensei) just due to block, giving a reason to use chains abit more safe.

2. Chip DMG
It is already in the game, and due to point 1. and the following point about parry, you will have more reasons to use chains with heavies in it.
Also something that nearly nobody knows, the devs said, that attacks in chains are doing MORE chip dmg.
So then what we need to do here ?
It is simple just raise the Chip dmg in general. How much can we handle without overpower chip dmg?
Currently it is 1-6 chip dmg,
- 1-3 are all classes
- 4-5 Raider and shugoki
- 6 Berserker top Heavy chain finisher

So 3-8 would be a good good amount, raising every chip dmg by 2 points.
- 3-5 for every class
- 6-7 raider shugoki
- 8 Top heavy finisher Berserker.

( 2-7 would be ok as well)


3. Stamina drain on block
So i am not a fan of stamina drain on block because stamina management is already hard.
But there is a way to manage something similar.
IF you are blocking, your stamina stops to regenerate for the time of the blocking frames.
This is a legit way to balance the stamina of persons without breaking it. It is used in other games as well and it works fine.
Its the same principe with attack, if you are attacking, your stamina does not regenerate.

And now about Parry:

1. Parry
The hardest to handle of all tools, because it is offensive and defensive.
Let's take a look again whats the advantages and disadvantages.
3. Parry:
+ Parry doesn't cost stamina
+ Parry on light gives most chars their strongest heavy for free
+ Parry in general gives a free heavy and a free GB(except on long range chars)
+ Parry drains 1/3 of the attackers stamina
Drawback for the Defensive:
-/+ IF he miss the parry he gets parried or hit, but you can still feint the missed parry and block fast enough. (this drawback is very unlikly)

So what i see the biggest problem is, it does not cost any stamina for the use -> that means there is no limit in using it. You can parry every attack, any time.
- setting a time limit ? no it would be do squishy
- giving it stamian cost? Yes, it would impact this overbalanced mechanic very much.
If it would cost abit less stamina than it drains from the enemy, around 1/4 stamina, it would be already limited extremly. But maybe you think now, this is useless why this should work?
Because with a full bar of stamina you could only parry 4 times in a row, you also need stamina for a GB, for an attack, for a throw.
Also you couldn't parry when you are out of stamina!!! Now you ask, how should i defend myself?
There are still Blocking and Dodging.

If you are exhausted to you think you could parry an attack?

The rest is fine as it is.

So lets summerize how to fix those issues:
1. Adding an uninterruptable passive traite to some attacks in chains.
2. Raising the Chip dmg abit
3. Stop regen stamian for the short time of the blocking frames
4. Limit parries - in my opinion by giving parries a high stamina cost. (Similar to rolling)

[MisterGuyMan]

There is anything no way that GB is effective in anyway. If you have good reflexes and predicting you can throw out lights for free damaged. If you have bad reflexes, you counter GB a full second after you see it coming. To compare that would be like being to parry any attack a second after it hits you. GB is pretty much the most useless universal move that everyone has.

The easiest way to fix GB is to just make it deal a small amount of damage even if it's countered or deal a significant amount of stamina damage guaranteed. If you solve a problem early before there's any real danger then it's a simple and easy fix. With GB that's light attack. You caught the attack early. If you wait until the last second to solve a problem then that's your mistake. GBC should not be free. As is, all it does is cost the GBer stamina and possibly get thrown off a cliff.

[Breikas.]

Why not go for the obvious fix and make guardbreaks do a small amount of damage, even when countered?
The only issue with this is that there's no legitimate counterplay to guardbreaks when out of stamina. But I agree that in neutral the real counter to a guardbreak should be a light attack and not a passive block stance (counterguardbreak can be done while searching for blocks, the very thing guardbreak should beat)

[DJ_Masterson]

There is anything no way that GB is effective in anyway. If you have good reflexes and predicting you can throw out lights for free damaged. If you have bad reflexes, you counter GB a full second after you see it coming. To compare that would be like being to parry any attack a second after it hits you. GB is pretty much the most useless universal move that everyone has.

The easiest way to fix GB is to just make it deal a small amount of damage even if it's countered or deal a significant amount of stamina damage guaranteed. If you solve a problem early before there's any real danger then it's a simple and easy fix. With GB that's light attack. You caught the attack early. If you wait until the last second to solve a problem then that's your mistake. GBC should not be free. As is, all it does is cost the GBer stamina and possibly get thrown off a cliff.

Alternatively, GBC could cost a great deal of stamina, encouraging people to either let it finish, or be more aggressive with their lights to prevent GB's to begin with.

[AngelNoire]

So I dont think your plan works entirely because it severely limits ones ability to get insta kills. Now that person can see the instakill attempt coming way sooner. This would destroy all enviro kills. However, I do have an alternative idea. Maintaining the current system of recoveries, make it so that you can stop a gb attempt by being in an ungrappleable animation (mid attack, mid_gb etc) but not in all other cases. However, instead of having all throw attempts counterable, make it so ones on recovery are free, meaning enviro kills will be more skill oriented and not just a cheap cop out.

This would also require a more visually recognizable window for throw counters than is currently in place for gbc. The issue also is that gb are disabling. In a group concept this is already an issue, with this rule it'd be even worse. Which is why I suggest that guardbreaks (not throws) not disable your ability to block.

This may sound overpowered but consider how much less annoying 4v4 would be with this little change? Sure disablers and opportunistic goki's will still be devastating, but only certain team compositions will be able to perfectly gank anymore.

Give it some thought. Let me know what you think.

[PDXGorechild]

TL;DR version - Guard Break counter change suggestion. Now can only be performed when the opponent attempts a throw. Throw animation is delayed for counter timing. Otherwise GB always leads into a free hit, as a means to punish Defense meta (which was the original intended purpose of GB but wasn't implemented properly). This change discourages overly defensive playstyle by promising punishment, while at the same time not encouraging more SPARTA.

~~~~~NOT TL;DR version~~~~~

I've been obsessed with figuring out a way to defeat the Sheep Meta ever since I discovered it was a thing, and moreso since Ubisoft themselves are apparently stumped on how to deal with it (and at times I doubt they even remember it's still a thing).

At first I made a huge list of complex changes to the core system involving things like more chip damage, guards requiring more input to perform, changes to punishment on exhaustion...

But I've been trying to think lately about... SIMPLER changes that could be made.

And it all comes down to GuardBreak, really.

GuardBreak is supposed to be the "paper" to Defense's "rock". It's SUPPOSED to help us punish turtles for hiding behind their shields like cowards.

But it doesn't work.

GuardBreaks can be countered. And even if they're not, you don't get guaranteed hits off of one (unless you meet special conditions to pull off the un-counterable GB).

So, obvious idea... why not just make Guard Breaks UNCOUNTERABLE?

...

But then, cliffs.

This is the whole reason that GuardBreaks can be countered at the moment. Grabs allow us to throw our enemy, and if we're feeling especially nasty, we can throw them off a cliff.

Which means that... although unfortunate, being able to counter the guard break is absolutely necessary.

Well, ****, then! What do we do!?

If only there was a way to allow people to avoid getting thrown, but still be punished by GuardBreaks...

...

... well, what if we applied the following simple change?:

1. The GB can now only be GBC'd when a throw is attempted. The throw animation is delayed and a symbol flashes to let the victim know when the proper time to counter is. The ability to counter could be removed under certain conditions (like when the opponent is exhausted).

Of course the initial hold still only lasts a certain period so you have to decide what you want to do with your victim before it auto-cancels.

And I'd also like to see guards modified to be unable to break combos on their own.

But other than that, whaddya think?

Personally I hate being thrown off cliffs. I avoid doing it unless i'm outnumbered. How about if you try and throw it initiates a button spamming struggle where you have to smash square quicker than the other player for a second or two, the victor pulls the throw off..? Kinda like uncharted and various other game sequences.

This seems like a great idea.

[Instadie]

Some of the posters aren't reading the OP's comments carefully enough... He says to make the initial guard break uncounterable, and the throw counterable. Here's my idea of how this can be fixed...

Maybe allow GBC, but tighten up the time, and make it able to punish.

Then when you get into the grab, the attacker has 2 options, and the defender has two options.

As the attacker you can attack from a direction, or throw in the 4 directions.

As the defender, if you bring your guard up, you can guard ANY attack (no freebies!)... but if you do that and they go for the throw, you will be thrown without a cancel.

Then there are some options that could be done, but throw countering would work like this. You can either

A. Press the OPPOSITE direction of the throw, with easy timing, and cancel the throw, leaving both players at neutral

B. Press the SAME direction of the throw, but with tight difficult timing, but you actually throw them in that direction instead of you getting thrown... Then its an actual COUNTER. Its not a counter if you are left neutral afterwards like the normal guard break interrupt.