Guard Break - The real issue with Defensive Meta. (Solved!?) | Forums

[DJ_Masterson]

Are you guys for reals? Okay pay attention.

Weill how does it solve the ledge issue?

I'm not trying to solve the issue of ledging altogether. I'm only saying that the reason GuardBreak can't just be made completely untechable is because people can use throws to get you off a cliff.

Imagine how much easier it would be to ledge if your GB couldn't be countered anymore? I'm just stipulating that's why I left the counter in there.

To fix ledging and make it less of an issue than it is now all we really need to do is make maps have less ledges on them. There are way too many currently.

So you basically want ppl to stand in front of each other and mash the GB button until one is dead.
sounds fun.

PAY. ATTENTION.

"4. GuardBreak NEVER beats an incoming attack no matter how early it's pulled off. Attacking at all makes you IMMUNE to GB's for the ENTIRE duration of the attack animation, guaranteeing that GB attempts are ALWAYS properly punished by an aggressive mindset."

So if you're spamming GB like an idiot your opponent will respond by spamming attack and lopping your head off like the ******* you are.

Okay? Okay.

1. The game already guarantees a heavy or light with any character from guardbreak

The game already gaurantees -A- heavy or light with SOME characters from GuardBreak. What I'm saying should change is that ALL lights (from every direction) should be gauranteed and Heavies should become unblockable.

2. Allowing dodge to avoid heavies would defeat the purpose of ever heavying

The fact that I'm saying Heavies off of GB should still be dodgable is not at all a change to the current system. Dodges have i-frames that you can use to avoid ANY attack, heavy or light. And it's not even difficult.

The only way you get hit by a heavy while trying to dodge is if you're a numbnutz and you dodge way too early. The Heavy can track your position during the windup, so basically you got hit after your dodge ended. You didn't properly attempt to dodge it.

Ideally you should dodge just as the swing is coming in to hit you. The window is very forgiving I assure you. TOO forgiving.

3. Feinting will now be massively overpowered because feint -> GB will be uncounterable, this would make ANY defensiveness entirely obselete and force the player to always assume the enemy will guardbreak. Even if you make it so the defending player is immune to guardbreak during the entirety of his parry animation, once he feints the parry the opposing player will have a free guardbreak open to them.

Noooo it absolutely will not.

If anything it'll make committing to a parry much safer, since your opponent's only safe response will be to block. It'll put an end to the Defensive Meta where people's only offensive option is to try heavy-feinting and hope their opponent goes for a parry, except they feint that too, and people end up in a stupid little feint-off.

4. Dodging will become massively overpowered

No it won't. It's ALREADY massively overpowered and the fact you didn't notice is incredible.

Nothing I've done here will change the way dodges work. They already have stupidly massive amounts of i-frames on them. You're just not very observant.

Anyways, here's a situation where you could feint into a GB. Feint, see if your opponent tries a dodge, go for a GB, hope he isn't an Orochi launching one of his slide-attacks.

5. Parrying will become obselete

Well we did establish that now your opponent can commit to a parry after you've feinted your attack, but still... how?

[DJ_Masterson]

I don't think I want to play a game where you have a one button move you have to use because the real part of the combat system doesn't work - they should focus on fixing the "art of battle".

GB should be for throws exclusively and then they should fix the real core of fighting so we don't have to rely on GB to land hits.

I mean, that's as valid an opinion as any, really. Personally I disagree with it, but I also think Ubisoft just plain won't go there.

It's clear that they put the GB in the game with the intent that it be used as a tool to open up an opponent and punish them for waiting behind their shields and not being aggressive enough. Removing the ability to attack after a grab would defeat that purpose.

If GB's could only throw, then it'd only be used to launch people off cliffs or into field hazards (or to make them fall down when they're exhausted), and... again. People complain about that sh*t enough as it is.

The last thing Ubisoft should do is focus the game MORE on ledging.

[DISC0MB0BULAT0R]

Maybe there are little tweaks that could make sense here, but overall I really like that solution. I think GB never interrupting an attack is a bit much; means you could react to a GB with an attack, which would probably make it useless, but I think that if the attack was launched at the same time or before, it shouldn't be interrupted, yeah? Maybe that's what you meant, but it wasn't clear to me.

But yeah, RPS and fun restored.

[DJ_Masterson]

Maybe there are little tweaks that could make sense here, but overall I really like that solution. I think GB never interrupting an attack is a bit much; means you could react to a GB with an attack, which would probably make it useless, but I think that if the attack was launched at the same time or before, it shouldn't be interrupted, yeah? Maybe that's what you meant, but it wasn't clear to me.

But yeah, RPS and fun restored.

Is it really possible to "react" to a GB? They hit ya pretty quick don't they? Almost instantaneous.

[Sanctus_9]

The game already gaurantees -A- heavy or light with SOME characters from GuardBreak. What I'm saying should change is that ALL lights (from every direction) should be gauranteed and Heavies should become unblockable.

I still don't get this. Every light IS guaranteed from a guard break, and all side heavies (except with raider) are also guaranteed.

The fact that I'm saying Heavies off of GB should still be dodgable is not at all a change to the current system. Dodges have i-frames that you can use to avoid ANY attack, heavy or light. And it's not even difficult.

The only way you get hit by a heavy while trying to dodge is if you're a numbnutz and you dodge way too early. The Heavy can track your position during the windup, so basically you got hit after your dodge ended. You didn't properly attempt to dodge it.

Ideally you should dodge just as the swing is coming in to hit you. The window is very forgiving I assure you. TOO forgiving.

Actually that is a change to the system. A successful guardbreak into a side heavy is almost universally guaranteed, it cannot be dodged. Other than that you're just saying it's easy to dodge. Doesn't that just prove my point that no one would heavy after a guardbreak under your system because dodging is easy?

Noooo it absolutely will not.

If anything it'll make committing to a parry much safer, since your opponent's only safe response will be to block. It'll put an end to the Defensive Meta where people's only offensive option is to try heavy-feinting and hope their opponent goes for a parry, except they feint that too, and people end up in a stupid little feint-off.

Wrong. If they block, and thus remain still, the enemy will feint -> gb and this will not be techable. If they parry -> feint, they will also be guardbroken.

No it won't. It's ALREADY massively overpowered and the fact you didn't notice is incredible.

Nothing I've done here will change the way dodges work. They alread have stupidly massive amounts of i-frames on them. You're just not very observant.

Massively overpowered? Most characters can't even dodge a headbutt, shield bash, shoulder bash, or light attack without having to predict it, except assassins. And Parrying usually yields a better, more predictable reward. And, once again, if you think dodge is "massively overpowered" then what sense does it make to make that the only way of getting out of a guard-break -> heavy?

[TCTF_SWAT]

once more: the core gameplay mechanics are fine. don't try to fix what isn't broken. the only real issue i see with this "defensive meta" that everyone cries about is that some chars (you know which ones) can exploit the **** out of a strong defense by attacking without the risk of being punished. fix that and the issue is solved, plain and simple.

So parry>GB is ok and GB>heavy is ok? But....characters beating the defense meta is not ok........I don't follow. And I wanna throw insults....but I'll hold my tongue.......for now.....

[DJ_Masterson]

I still don't get this. Every light IS guaranteed from a guard break, and all side heavies (except with raider) are also guaranteed.

I'm sorry but I play Lawbringer and I can confirm, no. My side-lights are not gauranteed off of a Guard Break. I've been blocked before.

Actually that is a change to the system. A successful guardbreak into a side heavy is almost universally guaranteed, it cannot be dodged. Other than that you're just saying it's easy to dodge. Doesn't that just prove my point that no one would heavy after a guardbreak under your system because dodging is easy?

I meant a change to the current Dodge system. The fact that some heavies can be dodged and some can't is a result of some heavies being faster than others. I guess in a way my suggestion would nerf it as it would no longer gaurantee heavies after a GB, but it would make them unblockable so the opponent's only option would be to dodge.

I would suggest, in addition, that dodges get way less I-frames than they currently do. And perhaps a dodge after a GB would not have I-frames at all, emphasizing dodging in the correct direction.

Wrong. If they block, and thus remain still, the enemy will feint -> gb and this will not be techable. If they parry -> feint, they will also be guardbroken.

So you're saying that if the opponent lunges at me with a heavy, and I go for the parry, and they feint into a GB, their GB will connect?

Doesn't GB usually get trumped by an attack? If my parry gets fainted it becomes a regular old heavy attack. This is not a "parry" animation anymore, it's an attack. GB's tend to get smashed in the face at this point.

Are you telling me the GB would still catch me?

Massively overpowered? Most characters can't even dodge a headbutt, shield bash, shoulder bash, or light attack without having to predict it, except assassins. And Parrying usually yields a better, more predictable reward. And, once again, if you think dodge is "massively overpowered" then what sense does it make to make that the only way of getting out of a guard-break -> heavy?

I might be a little biased considering I main LB and 90% of the time I try to pull off AN MORTEM INIMICUS it gets side-dodged by people who aren't even TRYING to get the timing down correctly. If the i-frames weren't so massive more of those hits would have connected, but the window is way too forgiving as it is.

The point of adding i-frames on a dodge is to make them small so that it's an actual case of skill when someone side-dodges through an attack. As it is right now, that's not the case.

Massively Overpowered might be a bit exaggerating but there's no question in my mind there's something wrong with it at the moment!

[Gojema]

A free light after the extremely fast untechable gb? Feels a lot like the warlord headbutt and I don't think anyone likes that one.

[Sanctus_9]

I'm sorry but I play Lawbringer and I can confirm, no. My side-lights are not gauranteed off of a Guard Break. I've been blocked before.

You're just wrong. I just tested it. It works everytime. You must have been low stam or waited too long when you got blocked. His side lights are faster (obviously) than his heavy anyway, so how could you logically think you couldn't land a light attack?

I guess in a way my suggestion would nerf it as it would no longer gaurantee heavies after a GB, but it would make them unblockable so the opponent's only option would be to dodge.

You do realize that unblockable attacks can be parried, right?

So you're saying that if the opponent lunges at me with a heavy, and I go for the parry, and they feint into a GB, their GB will connect?

Doesn't GB usually get trumped by an attack? If my parry gets fainted it becomes a regular old heavy attack. This is not a "parry" animation anymore, it's an attack. GB's tend to get smashed in the face at this point.

At a high level of play, when a player feints his heavy, the opposing player feints his parry. This can happen multiple times in a row. This is to avoid getting baited into a reverse parry.

With your system, the first player can simply guarantee an irreversible guardbreak because his animation will finish first. The way you described it would not happen with a competent player because no one would risk letting their heavy land on the off-chance that their opponent MIGHT guardbreak. Under YOUR system, if they let the heavy land to interrupt a guardbreak, the enemy can dodge and gets a guaranteed guardbreak. If they feint the heavy, the opponent can dodge ANYWAY and, yet again, get a free guaranteed guardbreak. Once again, whoever finishes their animation first automatically gets a free guardbreak.

Basically, your system would change the entire dynamic of the game. Actually, it would severely over simplify it.

I might be a little biased considering I main LB and 90% of the time I try to pull off AN MORTEM INIMICUS it gets side-dodged by people who aren't even TRYING to get the timing down correctly. If the i-frames weren't so massive more of those hits would have connected, but the window is way too forgiving as it is.

This is only true with overhead attacks, like that one. Reason being that what makes dodging difficult is not tracking; Most moves don't track for very long at all, and against an overhead you have a long window to simply side dodge. The balancing effect is that overheads are also often a lot faster, have better range, or are more powerful than side attacks. Side attacks are where more skill comes in because you have to dodge INTO the attack, forcing you to fine-tune your timing. Also, unblockable/unparryable abilities like shoulder bash, shield bash, spear sweep, and head butt, are so difficult to dodge that with some characters you have to actually predict it preemptively to be successful. Gimping dodge would make these characters severely underpowered.


Now, to be honest, it seems like you are biased in favor of law bringer and you haven't actually played or experimented with many other classes. A lot of the points you make yield an indication that you might not be sufficiently experienced in the game to fully comprehend the consequences of the changes you're advocating. I don't mean that condescendingly; there are few people who would really be qualified to point out real imbalances in the game.

[Sanctus_9]

And by the way, what happens when someone is low stam?? They can't attack safely. Right now, especially with heroes like warlord and conqueror, they will try to get you low stam with dodge-bashes, then trick you with a dodge-guardbreak. If guardbreaks are untechable, the defending low stam hero will be like a sheep next to a hungry wolf. No tricks or feints would even be necessary. You could just run up and guardbreak them. They could try to guardbreak back, but the higher stam player will ultimately win. Low stam FORCES you to play totally defensively. Under your logic, you'd have to change the entire stamina system.

And who would want to have a constant guardbreak cluster**** like that anway? That's not fun. Could you imagine team game modes? How are you supposed to constantly be attacking while a group of 3 or 4 guys gang bangs you?