Guard Break - The real issue with Defensive Meta. (Solved!?) | Forums

[DJ_Masterson]

TL;DR version - Guard Break counter change suggestion. Now can only be performed when the opponent attempts a throw. Throw animation is delayed for counter timing. Otherwise GB always leads into a free hit, as a means to punish Defense meta (which was the original intended purpose of GB but wasn't implemented properly). This change discourages overly defensive playstyle by promising punishment, while at the same time not encouraging more SPARTA.

~~~~~NOT TL;DR version~~~~~

I've been obsessed with figuring out a way to defeat the Sheep Meta ever since I discovered it was a thing, and moreso since Ubisoft themselves are apparently stumped on how to deal with it (and at times I doubt they even remember it's still a thing).

At first I made a huge list of complex changes to the core system involving things like more chip damage, guards requiring more input to perform, changes to punishment on exhaustion...

But I've been trying to think lately about... SIMPLER changes that could be made.

And it all comes down to GuardBreak, really.

GuardBreak is supposed to be the "paper" to Defense's "rock". It's SUPPOSED to help us punish turtles for hiding behind their shields like cowards.

But it doesn't work.

GuardBreaks can be countered. And even if they're not, you don't get guaranteed hits off of one (unless you meet special conditions to pull off the un-counterable GB).

So, obvious idea... why not just make Guard Breaks UNCOUNTERABLE?

...

But then, cliffs.

This is the whole reason that GuardBreaks can be countered at the moment. Grabs allow us to throw our enemy, and if we're feeling especially nasty, we can throw them off a cliff.

Which means that... although unfortunate, being able to counter the guard break is absolutely necessary.

Well, ****, then! What do we do!?

If only there was a way to allow people to avoid getting thrown, but still be punished by GuardBreaks...

...

... well, what if we applied the following simple change?:

1. The GB can now only be GBC'd when a throw is attempted. The throw animation is delayed and a symbol flashes to let the victim know when the proper time to counter is. The ability to counter could be removed under certain conditions (like when the opponent is exhausted).

Of course the initial hold still only lasts a certain period so you have to decide what you want to do with your victim before it auto-cancels.

And I'd also like to see guards modified to be unable to break combos on their own.

But other than that, whaddya think?

[TCTF_SWAT]

Weill how does it solve the ledge issue? I mean if someone has their back to a ledge the attacker can always just hit them off with strikes and since GB would be untechable then...well..yeah.

[Viruletic]

Weill how does it solve the ledge issue? I mean if someone has their back to a ledge the attacker can always just hit them off with strikes and since GB would be untechable then...well..yeah.

Actually, I like the idea of it. It would make positioning actual...well, positioning.

Currently, "positioning" is just getting as far from the cliff as possible, or at least getting parallel to the ledge so a CGB won't throw you off.

With this system, you can be near a ledge, just don't be on the wrong side of it. The absolute fear of the ledge is removed, and the game play behind positioning is more dynamic as players attempt to move around rather than GB into oblivion then pushing the stick in the right direction when they fail to CGB.

[brainfrog.345]

So you basically want ppl to stand in front of each other and mash the GB button until one is dead.
sounds fun.

[TCTF_SWAT]

Actually, I like the idea of it. It would make positioning actual...well, positioning.

Currently, "positioning" is just getting as far from the cliff as possible, or at least getting parallel to the ledge so a CGB won't throw you off.

With this system, you can be near a ledge, just don't be on the wrong side of it. The absolute fear of the ledge is removed, and the game play behind positioning is more dynamic as players attempt to move around rather than GB into oblivion then pushing the stick in the right direction when they fail to CGB.

I don't like it. tighten up the tech window would be a start and removing heavies after GB.

[brainfrog.345]

once more: the core gameplay mechanics are fine. don't try to fix what isn't broken. the only real issue i see with this "defensive meta" that everyone cries about is that some chars (you know which ones) can exploit the **** out of a strong defense by attacking without the risk of being punished. fix that and the issue is solved, plain and simple.

[Sanctus_9]

1. The game already guarantees a heavy or light with any character from guardbreak

2. Allowing dodge to avoid heavies would defeat the purpose of ever heavying

3. Feinting will now be massively overpowered because feint -> GB will be uncounterable, this would make ANY defensiveness entirely obselete and force the player to always assume the enemy will guardbreak. Even if you make it so the defending player is immune to guardbreak during the entirety of his parry animation, once he feints the parry the opposing player will have a free guardbreak open to them.

4. Dodging will become massively overpowered

5. Parrying will become obselete

I don't think this is the way to fix the game. I think it could be plausible to change the CONSEQUENCE of a guardbreak, for example, allowing only one free light attack instead of a heavy. OR make it so that parry simply stuns an opponent, or allows, instead of a guardbreak, only one free light attack (as is already the case with ranged classes like valk and nobushi)

[MurrToTheMurr]

I've thought about this solution too OP and I really like it. It would shift the powerlevel of the characters for sure, but thats a good thing. Also the throws being the only counterable part of the gb is a really good solution to the ledge-gimps. As you say it would mean you had to mind your positioning, but it would not restrict it to "stay as far away from any ledge or hazard as possible".

This would indeed restore the rock, papers, scissors relationship between defence (blocking/deflecting/parrying), guard breaks and offence.

So you basically want ppl to stand in front of each other and mash the GB button until one is dead.
sounds fun.

You are not at all understanding how this would work. As it is right now you are either mashing gb (to gb or cgb) or parrying/blocking. If gb's were uncounterable all you had to do to avoid being gb:ed would be to throw out an attack. This would force the defensive players to also take offensive actions (in order to avoid the gb) which in turn would let you parry and punish them. Offensive players would get gb:ed less often (since they would have attacks out more frequently) but could get parried. And people "just spamming gb" would be super easy to beat by throwing out attacks (just like its easy to parry people who only go for non-feinted heavies all the time).

As a last thought I think another thing that might shift the meta to a more offensive one would be to somehow take away your ability to cancel (or feint) your parry. I think a parry should be a commitment where you are rewarded if you successfully land it, but are punished if your opponent feinted. Right now a good opponent can cancel his parry when he notices that you feinted, which just further makes you play more defensively and lowers the incentive to ever try to attack. Maybe make your cancel heavies-button parry when timed correctly, instead of the heavy attack-button.

[Maaci]

I've thought about this solution too OP and I really like it. It would shift the powerlevel of the characters for sure, but thats a good thing. Also the throws being the only counterable part of the gb is a really good solution to the ledge-gimps. As you say it would mean you had to mind your positioning, but it would not restrict it to "stay as far away from any ledge or hazard as possible".

This would indeed restore the rock, papers, scissors relationship between defence (blocking/deflecting/parrying), guard breaks and offence.



You are not at all understanding how this would work. As it is right now you are either mashing gb (to gb or cgb) or parrying/blocking. If gb's were uncounterable all you had to do to avoid being gb:ed would be to throw out an attack. This would force the defensive players to also take offensive actions (in order to avoid the gb) which in turn would let you parry and punish them. Offensive players would get gb:ed less often (since they would have attacks out more frequently) but could get parried. And people "just spamming gb" would be super easy to beat by throwing out attacks (just like its easy to parry people who only go for non-feinted heavies all the time).

As a last thought I think another thing that might shift the meta to a more offensive one would be to somehow take away your ability to cancel (or feint) your parry. I think a parry should be a commitment where you are rewarded if you successfully land it, but are punished if your opponent feinted. Right now a good opponent can cancel his parry when he notices that you feinted, which just further makes you play more defensively and lowers the incentive to ever try to attack. Maybe make your cancel heavies-button parry when timed correctly, instead of the heavy attack-button.

That gb-suggestions sounds good on paper but in practice i really think it would be super boring to play since it will be to much about hardcounter guessing game. I want to have the optino to outplay my opponent without guesses.

[Mr_Gallows]

I don't think I want to play a game where you have a one button move you have to use because the real part of the combat system doesn't work - they should focus on fixing the "art of battle".

GB should be for throws exclusively and then they should fix the real core of fighting so we don't have to rely on GB to land hits.