Revenge Mode Triggering in 1v1 Fights | Forums

[janstorm2009]

And what's the deal with getting revenge on top of revenge?!

[xLeapingLizardx]

I couldn't help but notice that almost all the videos you posted to support the argument are 4v4 modes and I feel that you may be forgetting something. In these modes, gear stats are enabled. This means that a player can have bonuses to revenge at higher level gearing. A 108 gear rating often has the advantage of gaining revenge faster and having it longer. This simple fact undermines the nature of the mechanic (which isn't well balanced to begin with). I think revenge in a 1v1 would be perfectly acceptable (owing to the fact that it has a triggering mechanic based on play) if they reworked its functioning. The issue I see revolves around the effects of revenge. You get an automatic parry on activation that has an added knockdown effect, all attacks become uninterruptible, you do more damage while taking less, have a hp shield, all throws or bashes knock the opponent down and you have unlimited stamina. This is far too much for what I suspect the intention was. I believe it was a mechanic to allow for a player who is corned and forced on the defensive to interrupt the aggressor and swing the momentum.

Again, my point has been missed.. I care not for what mode is being played. When it is a 1v1 me vs you and nobody else, revenge should not build up... I know full well about the revenge gear stats but again towards my point in a 1v1 fight (yes even in a 4v4 mode) revenge should not build up, basically the revenge gear wouldn't matter until he is outnumbered, which is exactly the reason revenge is in the game.

Which brings me to the next subject. You said that you believed the mechanic was meant to allow a player who is cornered to interrupt the aggressor and swing the momentum.... This is NOT what revenge was put in the game for... At all... It was only put into the game because there were complaints about not being able to do anything when you are outnumbered. So this further helps my stance that it should not proc/ build up when you aren't outnumbered. By doing so, it is doing something that it wasn't intended to do when put in the game.
It also usually procs for someone losing the fight... Which is just a really bad game mechanic... You are losing a 1v1 but since you have revenge gain by injury you wont die from being outplayed, you'll be rewarded instead.... I mean it literally just does not make sense....

[Arekonator]

i think revenge is fine as baseline, but revenge stats on gear really push it over the top. I very very rarely see revenge being poped in 1v1 or 2v2 duel situations. But when you are at 1v1 situation in 4v4 mode and guy who doesnt block or parry gets full revenge proc after you hit him 3 times is just stupid and i believe part of the OPs point.

[Vahllin]

Again, my point has been missed.. I care not for what mode is being played. When it is a 1v1 me vs you and nobody else, revenge should not build up... I know full well about the revenge gear stats but again towards my point in a 1v1 fight (yes even in a 4v4 mode) revenge should not build up, basically the revenge gear wouldn't matter until he is outnumbered, which is exactly the reason revenge is in the game.

Which brings me to the next subject. You said that you believed the mechanic was meant to allow a player who is cornered to interrupt the aggressor and swing the momentum.... This is NOT what revenge was put in the game for... At all... It was only put into the game because there were complaints about not being able to do anything when you are outnumbered. So this further helps my stance that it should not proc/ build up when you aren't outnumbered. By doing so, it is doing something that it wasn't intended to do when put in the game.
It also usually procs for someone losing the fight... Which is just a really bad game mechanic... You are losing a 1v1 but since you have revenge gain by injury you wont die from being outplayed, you'll be rewarded instead.... I mean it literally just does not make sense....

As to the game mode not mattering, I will clarify. How do you define a 1v1 in a 4v4 mode? Proximity, lock-on, or perhaps only when another player hits you with an attack. Proximity could trigger for players who are not actually being outnumbered but are in co-located 1v1 fights on an objective. Lock-on can be cheesed by having other players use wide attacks and not locking on or could be inadvertently triggered by someone spectating the fight but not interfering. Waiting until another player hits you would mean that the mode would have to trigger instantly for it to have any effect considering that many characters heavies can destroy a large portion of your health in one hit. If you specify that it builds on external blocks or hits only then it would, in most group situations, not trigger in time to matter. A combination of the last two could work but it would be a very fine line and could potentially mean that being 'helped' by a teammate is a death sentence. This also means that the timing could become extremely crucial if teammates trade out in a fight or queue so that you are facing off against the second opponent at 1/4 or 1/5 of your health.

As to the intent being for outnumbered situations only:

"In Duel it's an interesting debate that we had internally. Personally, I like Revenge in Duel. Why? Because Revenge is a little bit like the Ultra in Street Fighter. It's an event that happens at some point toward the end of the fight. It does not happen every time. But it completely changes the mind games at that moment.

I'm getting close to having Revenge. Maybe I'm going to try to do one or two more defensive action that are maybe a little bit more tricky to get it. And then when I have it, that completely changes your interaction with me. You know I can throw you to the ground. If you guardbreak me I will be able to use it to escape it. There's that level of, okay, you thought you were winning, and it changes the way you need to approach me. You need to bait me into using it, and using it the wrong way." - Roman Oriola, Game Director


This is why my personal opinion is that revenge needs to have it's effects modified rather than trying to create a perfect 1v1 scenario in any mode other than duel. As to it being removed in duels.. I think the community is leaning toward that being the one mode it is not wanted but it's hard to say for sure. I still believe that even in duels it would be a perfectly viable mechanic should its effect be altered. The biggest issue being the knockdown effect from bashes and grabs. Even in the video you posted, fighting in a stat free mode, the win came from free hits on knockdown rather than extra damage, defense or uninterruptible attacks. Any class with a bash now has an unblockable attack that results in a free heavy which several classes can chain into a bash. This can lead to revenge being an instant win condition rather than a tool to shift momentum and play.

[xLeapingLizardx]

As to the game mode not mattering, I will clarify. How do you define a 1v1 in a 4v4 mode? Proximity, lock-on, or perhaps only when another player hits you with an attack. Proximity could trigger for players who are not actually being outnumbered but are in co-located 1v1 fights on an objective. Lock-on can be cheesed by having other players use wide attacks and not locking on or could be inadvertently triggered by someone spectating the fight but not interfering. Waiting until another player hits you would mean that the mode would have to trigger instantly for it to have any effect considering that many characters heavies can destroy a large portion of your health in one hit. If you specify that it builds on external blocks or hits only then it would, in most group situations, not trigger in time to matter. A combination of the last two could work but it would be a very fine line and could potentially mean that being 'helped' by a teammate is a death sentence. This also means that the timing could become extremely crucial if teammates trade out in a fight or queue so that you are facing off against the second opponent at 1/4 or 1/5 of your health.

As to the intent being for outnumbered situations only:

"In Duel it's an interesting debate that we had internally. Personally, I like Revenge in Duel. Why? Because Revenge is a little bit like the Ultra in Street Fighter. It's an event that happens at some point toward the end of the fight. It does not happen every time. But it completely changes the mind games at that moment.

I'm getting close to having Revenge. Maybe I'm going to try to do one or two more defensive action that are maybe a little bit more tricky to get it. And then when I have it, that completely changes your interaction with me. You know I can throw you to the ground. If you guardbreak me I will be able to use it to escape it. There's that level of, okay, you thought you were winning, and it changes the way you need to approach me. You need to bait me into using it, and using it the wrong way." - Roman Oriola, Game Director


This is why my personal opinion is that revenge needs to have it's effects modified rather than trying to create a perfect 1v1 scenario in any mode other than duel. As to it being removed in duels.. I think the community is leaning toward that being the one mode it is not wanted but it's hard to say for sure. I still believe that even in duels it would be a perfectly viable mechanic should its effect be altered. The biggest issue being the knockdown effect from bashes and grabs. Even in the video you posted, fighting in a stat free mode, the win came from free hits on knockdown rather than extra damage, defense or uninterruptible attacks. Any class with a bash now has an unblockable attack that results in a free heavy which several classes can chain into a bash. This can lead to revenge being an instant win condition rather than a tool to shift momentum and play.

I can't really say the specifics of when the revenge meter should build up, but either way, when it is a crisp clean 1v1 fight in any mode why should revenge build up? It is not the reason for the mechanic and ruins what the game stands for "having that feeling of holding a sword in your hand, locking eyes with your opponent, and begin to have a intense fight!"
But if I did say which option, I would probably say proximity but I am no expert on how the change should be implemented.

Another thing to maybe consider is this:
Let's look at the PK vs. Nobushi fight in one of the previous videos. In that encounter she only blocked 3 times..... Blocking 3 times in this game is not hard at all. So since she did 3 easy to do blocks and takes a significant beating she is rewarded with a buff?

Now here is another kicker!:
Look at the PK vs. PK fight in one of the previous videos. She blocked ZERO times.... ZERO... She just gets a buff just to get a buff, that is absolutely ridiculous no matter how you spin it.

One thing people say is "if you don't want your opponent to get revenge don't gank/double team." But with the gear and revenge mode how it currently is that is no guarantee.. So in the case of the PK vs. PK fight, my teammates might be close but I tell them not to interfere so I can fight her free of revenge mode. But as you see in the video she gets revenge mode anyway without blocking or any such thing.

Now I do see your point of the revenge getting a rework on its benefits so it can be a tool instead of an easy win feature. But I am still on the side of 1v1 fights not including revenge. Keep those fights about outplaying the other opponent, mind games, and general gritty swordplay. Not "ow ow ow block ow ow ROAR!! Now you cannot interrupt me and I have more health and do more damage!!!!"

[TCTF_SWAT]

Without gear stats revenge is fine. However how its' gained is another mattter. There are currently...I beieve 6-7 ways you can build revenge.

Getting hit
Blocking
Deflecting
Parrying
Dodging
Getting GB (or tech it or even interrupt a Gb so the attacker bounces off you)
and disable moves

[xLeapingLizardx]

No one has yet to convince me that this is a fair mechanic in 1v1 fights.
New vid:

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(Literally if revenge did not proc he would be dead....)